10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Kahuna]

Dick Smith Responds to Rossi E-Cat Test Refusal:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/dick- ... t-refusal/

So Dick Smith thinks he has outed Rossi as a fraud. I suspect nothing has really changed in the minds of most.

[Crawdaddy]

And while it is true the isotopic ratio data is damning, and no doubt has moved Essen & Kullander, there is no positive evidence that Rossi has what he says other than his claims and ability to convince others. Rossi has a record of making untrue claims and convincing others (the on record statements of the Mayor of wherever he previously was doing business, if I remember right, as well as his business record).

If Essen and Kullander changed their opinion of the E-cat I would too.

Please share the information you have about E&K that leaves you in "no doubt" of their change in attitude.

[tomclarke]

And while it is true the isotopic ratio data is damning, and no doubt has moved Essen & Kullander, there is no positive evidence that Rossi has what he says other than his claims and ability to convince others. Rossi has a record of making untrue claims and convincing others (the on record statements of the Mayor of wherever he previously was doing business, if I remember right, as well as his business record).

If Essen and Kullander changed their opinion of the E-cat I would too.

Please share the information you have about E&K that leaves you in "no doubt" of their change in attitude.

They were initially very publicly enthusiastic. they commneted (one of them) on isotopic distribution results as being very difficult to nexplain. They have since adopted a low profile.

My lack of doubt is that the isotopic measurements would have a negative effect on thei level of confidence, not on how high this now is.

[Crawdaddy]

And while it is true the isotopic ratio data is damning, and no doubt has moved Essen & Kullander, there is no positive evidence that Rossi has what he says other than his claims and ability to convince others. Rossi has a record of making untrue claims and convincing others (the on record statements of the Mayor of wherever he previously was doing business, if I remember right, as well as his business record).

If Essen and Kullander changed their opinion of the E-cat I would too.

Please share the information you have about E&K that leaves you in "no doubt" of their change in attitude.

They were initially very publicly enthusiastic. they commneted (one of them) on isotopic distribution results as being very difficult to nexplain. They have since adopted a low profile.

My lack of doubt is that the isotopic measurements would have a negative effect on thei level of confidence, not on how high this now is.

I don't recall E&K being enthusiastic. I recall their comments as being reserved and consistent with their observations. Like the professionals that they are. This assesment is borne out by their recorded interviews published on youtube.

[stefanbanev]

And while it is true the isotopic ratio data is damning, and no doubt has moved Essen & Kullander, there is no positive evidence that Rossi has what he says other than his claims and ability to convince others. Rossi has a record of making untrue claims and convincing others (the on record statements of the Mayor of wherever he previously was doing business, if I remember right, as well as his business record).

If Essen and Kullander changed their opinion of the E-cat I would too.

Please share the information you have about E&K that leaves you in "no doubt" of their change in attitude.

They were initially very publicly enthusiastic. they commneted (one of them) on isotopic distribution results as being very difficult to nexplain. They have since adopted a low profile.

My lack of doubt is that the isotopic measurements would have a negative effect on thei level of confidence, not on how high this now is.

Well, the aftermath powder could be a fake to make a false fusion tip; the actual fusion could be: p + p + e ->...-> D so Rossi tries to mislead or he just makes the point along his "comprehension"; it is irrelevant what the reasons are behind - the strongest evidences (for outside observer) so far are circumstantial evidences like: there are no ways Rossi may make money unless it works (at least I see no such ways), Hyperion derivative apparently goes along the same logic... Any sane investor will test "existing" tech so the concern for the investors money is pointless... LENR-tech does not promise to brake-even in some distant future they claim to do it routinely today (yesterday) with huge margin therefore it is trivial to test before investing. Once you claim to have LENR-tech testable you have no option to substitute the actual testing by the creditable theory and/or by academia credentials - such arrangement is really not a scam-friendly setup.

[Kahuna]

Looks like turnabout is fair play. Some on the DGT forum asked if they (DGT) would be willing to accept Dick Smith's $1 Million challenge (that was offered to Rossi) to which they replied:

So far we have not officially received (through a telephone, letter, fax or e-mail) any such offer published in different sites. If the offer and the "donor" are real, we will accept the challenge, performing a test under the protocol we have announced in our last Press Release (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=926&start=210).

In case this is a real proposal, we will accept an official letter and a proof of donated funds from a prime bank before any such testing.

Also note that our first independent official tests are starting on 24th of February 2012. No "donations" or any money where required or offered for these independent tests.

DGT

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/v ... f=4&t=1113

Since Dick Smith says his objective in offering the prize is to save hapless investors from losing their money in a scam, he should be willing to take on DGT's offer as they are clearly soliciting such funds where it is not at all clear that Rossi is. If in the eyes of some, Rossi clearly branded himself a fraud by refusing the challenge, what do they think DGT has done by accepting it? This should be interesting to watch.

UPDATE: Evidently Dick Smith has extended his offer to DGT, but says they will never actually perform any tests.

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2045

Since DGT has now publicly committed to start tests on 2/24 (next week), their credibility will be totally shot (IMO) if some sort of third-party communication is not forthcoming in the next few weeks. I assume this would hurt any fraudulant money raising plans they might have.

[stefanbanev]

Looks like turnabout is fair play. Some on the DGT forum asked if they (DGT) would be willing to accept Dick Smith's $1 Million challenge (that was offered to Rossi) to which they replied:

So far we have not officially received (through a telephone, letter, fax or e-mail) any such offer published in different sites. If the offer and the "donor" are real, we will accept the challenge, performing a test under the protocol we have announced in our last Press Release (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=926&start=210).

In case this is a real proposal, we will accept an official letter and a proof of donated funds from a prime bank before any such testing.

Also note that our first independent official tests are starting on 24th of February 2012. No "donations" or any money where required or offered for these independent tests.

DGT

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/v ... f=4&t=1113

Since Dick Smith says his objective in offering the prize is to save hapless investors from losing their money in a scam, he should be willing to take on DGT's offer as they are clearly soliciting such funds where it is not at all clear that Rossi is. If in the eyes of some, Rossi clearly branded himself a fraud by refusing the challenge, what do they think DGT has done by accepting it? This should be interesting to watch.

UPDATE: Evidently Dick Smith has extended his offer to DGT, but says they will never actually perform any tests.

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2045

Since DGT has now publicly committed to start tests on 2/24 (next week), their credibility will be totally shot (IMO) if some sort of third-party communication is not forthcoming in the next few weeks. I assume this would hurt any fraudulant money raising plans they might have.

Apparently it's the case when the common good conflicts with moral ground...

[Carl White]

Since DGT has now publicly committed to start tests on 2/24 (next week), their credibility will be totally shot (IMO) if some sort of third-party communication is not forthcoming in the next few weeks.

A few weeks is too tight a time frame. It's up to the independent testers to publish statements and they'll probably want to go home to mull over their data and discuss it with others before issuing a carefully-written, cautious endorsement. (Hopefully an endorsement).

[Skipjack]

performing a test under the protocol we have announced in our last Press Release (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=926&start=210).

This is my biggest issue with that. If I wanted to give away 1 million USD, I would want to set the test protocol. Why do they insist on this anyway? Once they start selling their product, people will be able to test it with whatever protocolls they want to. So why not now?

[ladajo]

This was the 'hidden' subtext in Dick Smith's offer. You can test, but it will need to meet some minimum guidance to make it a valid test.

In the case of his offer to Rossi, it was the two swedes, and another unspecified test and instrumentation expert. Most folks did no tpick up on the third body. Those that did assumed it would be Ian Bryce.

So, Smith did actually dictate test protocol terms, he was just subtle about it.

[Skipjack]

Yes, but DGT did want to dictate their own protocols and that is my issue.

[Kahuna]

A goog recap of the Smith/DGT exchange here:

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2054

Smith also added comments to the article:

I would consider piggy backing on the Greek Government test if is conducted shortly and if it is carried out by their internationally respected scientific community .

Of course it would have to be totally open and the results available to everyone.

I presume Greece has a chief government scientist. That’s the person we need to be involved.

I predict Defkalion will not allow this.

It actually sounds here like he (Smith) is more concerned about who the independent testers are than what protocol they use. He certainly could not hope to change the Greek government protocol at this late date.

Also note that DGT has only issued fairly broad guidelines for the test protocol and not the protocol itself. They say this is only for the first round of tests on the bare reactor. Flow calorimitry will be allowed for future tests (phase 2) of the commercial product.

UPDATE: Looks like Smith and DGT might actually come to terms on a testing protocol.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/dick- ... like-test/

If by some chance, DGT actually pulls this off and Smith pays, they will get a huge amount of free PR and a very nice launching pad for their product line. Nice thing is, Smith wants this done quickly and to be very public. A nice change from Rossi's approach. If Smith and DGT agree on a protocol, I would say that is a very goo first sign for the technology as a high visibility failure by DGT here could really hurt them.

Not much new here, but some might want to watch Sterling Allen report on his trip to Greece (DGT) here (starts at around 17:30):

http://smartscarecrow.blogspot.com/2012 ... atton.html

He does say that, sfter his visit, he would bet on DGT (vs. Rossi) to successfully bring this tech to market.

UPDATE #2: Dick Smith claims DGT is equivocating, but it sounds to me like he might be doing a little of the same:

http://ecatnews.com/?p=2068

[parallel]

Dick Smith is extremely rude. I can't imagine anyone wanting to do business with him but for the lure of the one million bucks. It now rather looks like Mr. Smith was grandstanding.

All this rather confirms Rossi's view that the only proof that will be accepted by the skeptics is commercial sale of reactors.

Email from DGT.

We requested for a Skype conference call with Mr Smith, similar to what he had requested from Mr Rossi. Mr Smith declined our offer. Strangely, when Mr Rossi declined Mr Smith, Mr Smith called Mr Rossi a scam. Should we considerthe same of Mr Smith?

We look forward to receiving from Mr Smith (1) an official letter of his offer; (2) proof of dedicated funds from a prime bank for 1 million; and (3) proof of entity (corporate or personal). Upon receipt of the above, we are ready,willing and able to proceed with the challenge.

Our protocol has been accepted by leading world authorities and we are undergoing tests under strict NDAs. Nonetheless, we are open to discuss variations such as a 6 hour test, still being able to prove a COP of over 20. But these are formalities to be discussed in private. Should we proceed, Mr Smith will be bound by NDA. He can receive all the publicity he wants after the test.

Post Script:

Mr Smith, we do not have a house to buy back; that was a nasty comment to Mr Andrea Rossi.

[stefanbanev]

Dick Smith is extremely rude. I can't imagine anyone wanting to do business with him but for the lure of the one million bucks. It now rather looks like Mr. Smith was grandstanding.

All this rather confirms Rossi's view that the only proof that will be accepted by the skeptics is commercial sale of reactors.

Email from DGT.

We requested for a Skype conference call with Mr Smith, similar to what he had requested from Mr Rossi. Mr Smith declined our offer. Strangely, when Mr Rossi declined Mr Smith, Mr Smith called Mr Rossi a scam. Should we considerthe same of Mr Smith?

We look forward to receiving from Mr Smith (1) an official letter of his offer; (2) proof of dedicated funds from a prime bank for 1 million; and (3) proof of entity (corporate or personal). Upon receipt of the above, we are ready,willing and able to proceed with the challenge.

Our protocol has been accepted by leading world authorities and we are undergoing tests under strict NDAs. Nonetheless, we are open to discuss variations such as a 6 hour test, still being able to prove a COP of over 20. But these are formalities to be discussed in private. Should we proceed, Mr Smith will be bound by NDA. He can receive all the publicity he wants after the test.

Post Script:

Mr Smith, we do not have a house to buy back; that was a nasty comment to Mr Andrea Rossi.

DS is just looking for the scandal, he has no intention to set-up an actual test and be formally/officially engaged. DS has declared the outcome in advance so, what the point to run the actual test of apparent scam. As soon as NDA does not preclude from public release of test-result, DS' NDA complains do look weak...

[tomclarke]

Dick Smith is extremely rude. I can't imagine anyone wanting to do business with him but for the lure of the one million bucks. It now rather looks like Mr. Smith was grandstanding.

All this rather confirms Rossi's view that the only proof that will be accepted by the skeptics is commercial sale of reactors.

Email from DGT.

We requested for a Skype conference call with Mr Smith, similar to what he had requested from Mr Rossi. Mr Smith declined our offer. Strangely, when Mr Rossi declined Mr Smith, Mr Smith called Mr Rossi a scam. Should we considerthe same of Mr Smith?

We look forward to receiving from Mr Smith (1) an official letter of his offer; (2) proof of dedicated funds from a prime bank for 1 million; and (3) proof of entity (corporate or personal). Upon receipt of the above, we are ready,willing and able to proceed with the challenge.

Our protocol has been accepted by leading world authorities and we are undergoing tests under strict NDAs. Nonetheless, we are open to discuss variations such as a 6 hour test, still being able to prove a COP of over 20. But these are formalities to be discussed in private. Should we proceed, Mr Smith will be bound by NDA. He can receive all the publicity he wants after the test.

Post Script:

Mr Smith, we do not have a house to buy back; that was a nasty comment to Mr Andrea Rossi.

DS is just looking for the scandal, he has no intention to set-up an actual test and be formally/officially engaged. DS has declared the outcome in advance so, what the point to run the actual test of apparent scam. As soon as NDA does not preclude from public release of test-result, DS' NDA complains do look weak...

How do we know what the NDA stops people from publishing?

Tom