10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:44 am

icarus wrote:You are wrong here because the maths says so.

Fine, care to show me the math that proves me wrong?

icarus wrote:From the Nature article:
Upon increasing the photon density, we observe the following BEC signatures: the photon energies have a Bose–Einstein distribution with a massively populated ground-state mode

I actually went through and checked Weitz's calcs, he is right, did you do the same?

A quote from an article is no math in my world.
Here is the link to the original Arxiv paper:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1007.4088v2
Point me to the equations that you checked and that you identified as fundamental to PROVE that what he discovered is a BEC.


icarus wrote:BEC are described by the statistics of Bose-Einstein, (funnily enough) hence the name. This is THE definition of a BEC. The photonic-BEC is described by these statistics, thus it is a Bose-Einstein condensate ... any questions? (Or just go and do the math).

Bipeds are described as animals walking on two legs, yet to distinguish between humans and monkeys you need to add an identification of their intelligence level (even if sometimes the two are almost indistinguishable).
Just because a photon is a Boson it does not mean that it can become a BEC.

Let me restate it again:
A BEC is formed by a macroscopic population at ground state in thermal equilibrium of non interacting particles from which spontaneous coherence emerges.

I suggest spending some time to understand a little bit of nomenclature and definitions before attempting to go to directly to the math so maybe also the math will become more clear.

Crawdaddy
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Postby Crawdaddy » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 am

Giorgio wrote:
Crawdaddy wrote:BEC of photons was reported in nature last year.

Keep up with the literature people.

http://blogs.physicstoday.org/update/20 ... te-of.html

The BEC behavior of polaritons was reported in science in 2002.

That's not really a BEC of photons in the strict term of the BEC meaning.
Remember, a BEC is formed by a macroscopic population at ground state in thermal equilibrium.

This is more a statistical trick where you slow down some photons by dumping and reflecting them in a liquid dye, thus allowing them to reach an uniform temperature among the group. In reality they attain an average thermal equilibrium, but they have no macroscopic population and not at ground state.
This is more a new form of matter, a standing wave, or a new form of laser if you want, but not a BEC condensate of photons.

The main issue in attaining a BEC of photons is that when you try to cool down photons (i.e. you attempt to reduce their energy) all what you will get is that you lose them.
Why?
Because photons are not particles, they do not have different state of energies like particle do, they cannot jump from one state to the other.
Photons are excitations, they get generated or absorbed WITH different level of energies.
And this is exactly the neat trick they use in this research to try to create an uniform emission of photons all at the same energy level.
But again, no BEC of photons here folks.


Incorrect.

If you read the article and those that cite it you will see that this system fulfills the conditions for a 2D BEC. And that the emission properties are dependent on the number of photons in the resonant cavity.

Generally people don't get nature publications simply by making a dye doped resonant cavity (which is so old it was probably first experimented with before I was born).

So yes 2D BEC of photons here folks.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:33 am

Crawdaddy wrote:Incorrect.

If you read the article and those that cite it you will see that this system fulfills the conditions for a 2D BEC. And that the emission properties are dependent on the number of photons in the resonant cavity.

Generally people don't get nature publications simply by making a dye doped resonant cavity (which is so old it was probably first experimented with before I was born).

So yes 2D BEC of photons here folks.

That article and those that cite it are well known to me.
Their experiment made its way in Nature because is a very smart experiment, and deserved to be there. The critic is (and will still be for many years to come ) if this can be indeed considered a BEC or not.
Their attempt to justify it as a BEC is mainly residing on the hypothesis that frequent collisions of dye molecules with the solvent creates a fast de-coherence phenomena that prevents the coupling of the phases of dipole and photon. From this they assume that the particles are only photons instead of polaritons.
Nice assumption in theory, but still to be proven true IMHO.

There is more critics of course, but this will suffice until they prove that the particle are all photons.

icarus
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Postby icarus » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:29 am

Okay you got me Gorgio ... arguing semantics is always the last resort for the never-wrongs, you will always win since you can change the definitions as often as you please to make sure you are never wrong ....

... the BEC maths stats. "as commonly understood" says it is a BEC ... if you have your own definition for BEC (or bipedal monkeys) that is fine but you must realise you are arguing semantics at that point, not physics .... or are you not as clever as you make out?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:57 am

Okay you got me Gorgio ... arguing semantics is always the last resort for the never-wrongs


Quite so. Which proves you are a pig Mr. I. After all you have most of the requisite parts. Four appendages. A mouth. Teeth. etc. All you are missing is a tail. And that can be glued on if necessary. And if you disagree you are merely arguing semantics.

"Words mean what I want them to mean. Nothing more. Nothing less."

Kinda makes you wonder though.

Electrons have mass and charge. So do protons. Thus an electron is a proton. Heaven only knows why two different concepts were adopted for identical particles. Probably just an effort to confuse laymen.

Take a Bose. Put it together with an Einstein. Drip some water on them from the humidity condensing on the cold ceiling. I believe that fully satisfies your rigorous definition for a BEC.

You aren't going to argue semantics with me are you? I hope not.
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MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:14 am

Brits write "boot", I write "trunk"


Wait until you get booted in the trunk.
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KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:02 pm

Giorgio wrote: LOL, I am not suggesting anything, I am STATING some known and proved physics facts. YOU are making a big confusion with them and YOU are thinking that they suggest something else. That's quite a difference IMHO! :D
Ok. As I stated, I could be wrong, but maybe I just see further than you, but dimly.

I guess you shall remain convinced one way while I remain unsure that you are correct.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:06 pm

ScottL wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
ScottL wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Maybe so. I'm writing American, how bout you?

....America includes both North and South with quite a few languages.
Well you see there is
Latin American (Mexico and south (cept Brazil)
British American (which them Kanaks got ALL mixed up with Quebecoise, eh?)
And then there is American. Pretty much the entire world recognizes the term "American" as a language, though many might slip in the Canucks.


There is no such thing as "American" language. The U.S. version of historic english is merely a slang derivative of an already existing language with minor spelling differences. Every time I hear "speak American" or "Murrakin" I die a little inside. As for the Americas, yes several languages exist here and no the U.S. isn't "America." We have both Northern and Southern continents, although the U.S. population as some how misappropriated "American" as their own.

This will end my off-topic posting, back to Rossi and his fancy tea pot.


Ok, I get you. So all those folks in staged protests shouting "Death to Americans" are REALLY after the Brazilians and Peruvians, and Mexicans, and Canadians.....

:roll:

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:14 pm

Giorgio wrote: But again, no BEC of photons here folks.
Wow, you have REALLY gone off on a side comment.
How bout a BEC of excitons. Or Polaritons. Can those exist?

I still think a laser is equivalent to a BEC, but that is inconsequential to our basic discussion.

KitemanSA
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Postby KitemanSA » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm

MSimon wrote:
Brits write "boot", I write "trunk"
Wait until you get booted in the trunk.
Is that like being kicked in the kaboose?

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:47 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Brits write "boot", I write "trunk"
Wait until you get booted in the trunk.
Is that like being kicked in the kaboose?


trunk (trungk)
1. torso; the main part of the body, to which head and limbs are attached.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/trunk
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ScottL
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Postby ScottL » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:55 pm

Ok, I get you. So all those folks in staged protests shouting "Death to Americans" are REALLY after the Brazilians and Peruvians, and Mexicans, and Canadians.....


I expect more from you Kite. You ignored the fact that I said U.S. citizens have appropriated the name "American" incorrectly. We're so entitled here, we really could use some humility.

MSimon
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Postby MSimon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:27 pm

ScottL wrote:
Ok, I get you. So all those folks in staged protests shouting "Death to Americans" are REALLY after the Brazilians and Peruvians, and Mexicans, and Canadians.....


I expect more from you Kite. You ignored the fact that I said U.S. citizens have appropriated the name "American" incorrectly. We're so entitled here, we really could use some humility.


I don't believe Americas are so entitled. It is my understanding that we worked hard and many of our ancestors starved to give us what we have today. Some of us still like to work hard. For the fun of it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.
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seedload
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Postby seedload » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:45 pm

MSimon wrote:I don't believe Americas are so entitled. It is my understanding that we worked hard and many of our ancestors starved to give us what we have today. Some of us still like to work hard. For the fun of it.


If I understand the philosophy correctly, it is this:

Work little and get lots of entitlements.
Work harder and lose these entitlements.
Work even harder and pay more for other peoples entitlements.
Work exceptionally hard, and the government will broker what you are entitled to.

And remember, you are never entitled to call yourself American.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

ScottL
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Postby ScottL » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:49 pm

I'm not talking about ancestors, I agree they did. I'm talking about today's generation. We feel the need to tell others how to live their lives and attach social stigmas on anything we don't agree with (drug arguments). When another country does something we don't like, we tend to overreact like everywhere should fall into our little boxed up world view. The U.S. was strong post-WW2 because we had a can-do attitude and that we did what needed to be done even though we didn't want to be involved. We were strong because the poor were pulling themselves up into this emerging middle-class and were encouraged to do so. Now anyone who isn't poor is too busy telling the poor how lazy they are because they aren't working a 3rd shift. Too busy trying to marry bills such as the Payroll Tax and Oil Pipeline because god knows they need to be together right? We walk and talk with entitlement because of what our ancestors did, not what we have done or can do.

We are the whiny kid that says my grand-dad and dad were great, but are unwilling to seperate from their accomplishments and make our own.


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