10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Enginerd
Posts: 178
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Post by Enginerd »

parallel wrote:It seems no matter how often it is repeated, posters here don't get it.
It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here. The patent office will not consider patents for this area, being convinced by DoE that it is impossible. Presumably his patent attorney is trying, but even if successful, it will take years.
The patent people are not idiots and they are not (generally speaking) evil. The patent office has dealt with literally millions of perpetual motion machine and patent application for virtually every possible scam, fraud, delusion, and hoax. Their rules are in place to cut down on the number of stupid or thermodynamically impossible applications they have to deal with. Their rules are NOT in place to deny patents to actual worthy real inventions. They just need to be given a good reason to consider cold fusion worthy of even looking at.

The patent office will absolutely consider patents for cold fusion if they are presented with a working cold fusion machine. A working machine would easily be given a patent -- provided such a working machine were delivered to the patent office, and could be tested using well designed thermal measurement methods (the sort that have been discussed for over 300 pages on this forum) to demonstrate vast amounts of heat being produced in a manner that conclusively must be cold fusion...

In today's world, if you want to be rich, you do not rely on "secret sauce". Somebody will reverse engineer your secret sauce in a matter of hours, and you will not become rich. If you want to change the world, you do not rely on "secret sauce". You release your amazing discovery under Creative Commons or some such.

Patent office people (just like physicists and engineers) are pragmatists. Show us a working machine, a working experiment that can be replicated, etc, and hell yeah we will change our opinions. On a dime. It is hard to argue with reality. If Rossi wants a patent, he should stick his machine on a truck and drive it over to the local patent office. His failure to do so, just like his utter failure to provide any sort of unequivocal demonstration of his machine doing cold fusion to anybody, and just like his making a lot of noise about being persecuted, in my mind is what you see with fraud.

I like the quote by Philip K. Dick: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

Enginerd wrote:
parallel wrote:It seems no matter how often it is repeated, posters here don't get it.
It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here. The patent office will not consider patents for this area, being convinced by DoE that it is impossible. Presumably his patent attorney is trying, but even if successful, it will take years.
The patent people are not idiots and they are not (generally speaking) evil. The patent office has dealt with literally millions of perpetual motion machine and patent application for virtually every possible scam, fraud, delusion, and hoax. Their rules are in place to cut down on the number of stupid or thermodynamically impossible applications they have to deal with. Their rules are NOT in place to deny patents to actual worthy real inventions. They just need to be given a good reason to consider cold fusion worthy of even looking at.

The patent office will absolutely consider patents for cold fusion if they are presented with a working cold fusion machine. A working machine would easily be given a patent -- provided such a working machine were delivered to the patent office, and could be tested using well designed thermal measurement methods (the sort that have been discussed for over 300 pages on this forum) to demonstrate vast amounts of heat being produced in a manner that conclusively must be cold fusion...

In today's world, if you want to be rich, you do not rely on "secret sauce". Somebody will reverse engineer your secret sauce in a matter of hours, and you will not become rich. If you want to change the world, you do not rely on "secret sauce". You release your amazing discovery under Creative Commons or some such.

Patent office people (just like physicists and engineers) are pragmatists. Show us a working machine, a working experiment that can be replicated, etc, and hell yeah we will change our opinions. On a dime. It is hard to argue with reality. If Rossi wants a patent, he should stick his machine on a truck and drive it over to the local patent office. His failure to do so, just like his utter failure to provide any sort of unequivocal demonstration of his machine doing cold fusion to anybody, and just like his making a lot of noise about being persecuted, in my mind is what you see with fraud.

I like the quote by Philip K. Dick: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
You should also take into account the fact that this patent has already been granted to piantelli.

http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011 ... lli-pct-2/

This patent may cover Rossi's device, in which case he is hooped regardless.

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Crawdaddy,
That patent is not from the US patent office. Apart from what seems to have been a mistake, no patent on cold fusion has been accepted here. There is a special process in place to divert patent application on cold fusion to limbo land.

I don't buy Enginerd's comments. The patent office should be immune to such influence. They could go an inspect a working unit somewhere, but do you really think they will? Consider that they will have to examine all the patent applications they have dumped over the years and what a mess that will be.

Rossi has every reason to be paranoid. His invention is potentially the most valuable in history. Once an E-Cat is presented to one of the Universities it will only take a short time before the secret is stolen. Multi million dollar bribes will work wonders.

As cold fusion has a very long history, when the E-Cat is visible commercially, I forecast the lawyers will make nearly as much money as Rossi out of his invention. I hope he has the sense to stay clear and not waste his life in a court room.

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

parallel wrote:Crawdaddy,
That patent is not from the US patent office. Apart from what seems to have been a mistake, no patent on cold fusion has been accepted here. There is a special process in place to divert patent application on cold fusion to limbo land.

I don't buy Enginerd's comments. The patent office should be immune to such influence. They could go an inspect a working unit somewhere, but do you really think they will?

Rossi has every reason to be paranoid. His invention is potentially the most valuable in history. Once an E-Cat is presented to one of the Universities it will only take a short time before the secret is stolen. Multi million dollar bribes will work wonders.

As cold fusion has a very long history, when the E-Cat is visibly commercial, I forecast the lawyers will make nearly as much money as Rossi out of his invention. I hope he has the sense to stay clear and not waste his life in a court room.
I am aware that it isn't granted in the US. Regardless, the invention described in piantelli's patent has already been disclosed and many of the countries that granted the patent have treaties with the US that would make it very difficult for anyone trying to patent something similar in any western country, or any country for that matter.

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Crawdaddy,
It's not just piantelli's either, Rossi has a patent in Italy. Even BLP may overlap.
As I said, the lawyers will have a field day.

Enginerd
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:29 am

Post by Enginerd »

parallel wrote:Crawdaddy,
That patent is not from the US patent office. Apart from what seems to have been a mistake, no patent on cold fusion has been accepted here. There is a special process in place to divert patent application on cold fusion to limbo land.

I don't buy Enginerd's comments. The patent office should be immune to such influence. They could go an inspect a working unit somewhere, but do you really think they will?
The patent office is not required to travel anywhere. People bring their applications (and/or machines) to them. A paper only application, alleging a breakthrough in unconventional physics, is easily dismissed based on our existing understanding of physics. A working machine which is quite obviously demonstrating a breakthrough in unconventional physics, is a horse of a different color.

A working cold fusion machine delivered to the patent office for testing would clearly satisfy the test of patent eligibility. According to the current Machine-or-transformation test, such a machine would clearly be devised and adapted to carry out cold fusion, which is certainly not conventional nor trivial (or everybody would be doing it). It would also, by the very definition of cold fusion, transform an article from one thing or state to another. It would also in this case constitute a "particular machine." It would clearly be sufficiently inventive, i.e. non-obvious, since no prior art demonstrates anywhere near the power levels claimed by Rossi. Even the Piantelli patent claims nothing at all like the power that Rossi claims his machine produces. That feature alone should make his work patentable (assuming for one moment it is real). The only conspiracy against Rossi, and cold fusion in general, is nobody has managed to deliver a working unit to any lab or patent office.

As I said, you can easily argue over theory. You cannot reasonably argue against reality. When someone delivers paper to the patent office claiming unconventional physics, they can easily ignore and reject it. When somebody delivers a working machine, they cannot simply ignore it.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

Enginerd
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:29 am

Post by Enginerd »

parallel wrote:Rossi has every reason to be paranoid. His invention is potentially the most valuable in history. Once an E-Cat is presented to one of the Universities it will only take a short time before the secret is stolen. Multi million dollar bribes will work wonders.
Clearly, if Rossi wants to make money, reliance on "secret sauce" type trade secrets is certifiably insane -- or rather would be insane if the e-cat were real. Patent protection is the feasible method of securing his "intellectual property". Using trade secrets, rather than patents, is however consistent with alternative theories on the reality of the e-cat.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

Enginerd wrote:
parallel wrote:Rossi has every reason to be paranoid. His invention is potentially the most valuable in history. Once an E-Cat is presented to one of the Universities it will only take a short time before the secret is stolen. Multi million dollar bribes will work wonders.
Clearly, if Rossi wants to make money, reliance on "secret sauce" type trade secrets is certifiably insane -- or rather would be insane if the e-cat were real. Patent protection is the feasible method of securing his "intellectual property". Using trade secrets, rather than patents, is however consistent with alternative theories on the reality of the e-cat.
Again,

If you investigate the patent literature, you can find several patents that disclose inventions similar to what rossi is doing. Since we don't know what his "secret sauce" is, it is entirely possible that the invention has already been disclosed in earlier patent applications.

For instance some of piantelli's patent claims were rejected because the innovation was already disclosed in a 1990 german patent that was not even granted.

So much disclosure has already occurred in previous patent work that if cold fusion exists it may not be patentable at all.

It would not surprise me at all to find that there is no "secret sauce" in the rossi reactor. Because in nuclear terms the difference between 1W and 1000W is not really that large (when you consider that a nuclear reaction should be able to vaporize a city block), if cold fusion is real the difference in observed effects might be as simple as a special purification step or more careful fabrication procedure.

In my work as soon as something works with a 0.0001% yield I know I can improve the yield by fine tuning the fabrication process, usually without "secret sauce", Rossi could just be doing a better job of making his powders.

If that were the case he has little chance of patenting his device.

icarus
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Post by icarus »

Rossi should concentrate his business on selling secret powders ... leave all the engineering leg work to the others. He could just supply the basic drawings for configurations that work and can hook up to his magic reactor cores and supply the secret powders.
8)

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here.
Actually the field is wide open. All Rossi has to do is prove it works. Eventually he would collect royalties from everyone.

To say he can't get a patent is to say his device doesn't work.

He can't get a patent apriori. So what?
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

In my work as soon as something works with a 0.0001% yield I know I can improve the yield by fine tuning the fabrication process, usually without "secret sauce", Rossi could just be doing a better job of making his powders.


Most work these days consists of finding the sweet spot and building a mountain on it.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

Rossi has every reason to be paranoid. His invention is potentially the most valuable in history.
Say. Didn't they make a movie about this once? "The Water Engine"
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Crawdaddy,

I agree with some of what you wrote. I would not be surprised if his design is challenged and can't be patented.

I do think he has done something different to get the higher heat output and of course that is what he is trying to protect.

The idea that he could take an E-Cat to the patent office and they would be able to test it there for a minimum of 3 days continuous operation (required according to NASA) strikes me as funny. Next will be the suggestion that it is tested in someone's lab, like MIT. In which case what is the difference between patent officials going there or going to somewhere Rossi specifies?

parallel
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:24 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

MSimon wrote:
It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here.
Actually the field is wide open. All Rossi has to do is prove it works. Eventually he would collect royalties from everyone.

To say he can't get a patent is to say his device doesn't work.

He can't get a patent apriori. So what?
All Rossi has to do is prove it works. Eventually he would collect royalties from everyone.
Come on Simon, you know better than that.

Crawdaddy
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 5:27 pm

Post by Crawdaddy »

Here is some new info.

At 6minutes into this video, Dr. Mckubre says that his former boss at DARPA is convinced it is true and that one of his close friends witnessed a demonstration in 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3N3dWlIPUQ

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