10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

JoeP · Post by **JoeP** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:54 pm

seedload wrote: <snip>
If the shielding is between chamber and water, then the heat must also be transfered through the lead shielding which is also interesting.

EDIT - What is with the resolution of these pictures? It's 2011 for God's sake. Get a real camera, NyTeknik.

Hmm. Any evidence of a double wall to contain the lead since the stated operational temps of the reactor core can get up to the melting point of lead? I recall a post by Rossi stating 1600 C on a runaway reactor test.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:00 pm

I was thinking on this as well, but failed to articulate it. It is a fair question and good point to explore.

Even at lower operating temps, lead becomes mallible, and over time, if not contained, will flow.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:09 pm

This is an interesting analysis done on the proposed Ni-Cu reactions. it inlcudes some discussion on Gamma energies and flux, as well as shielding at the end.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/20 ... atures.pdf

It would seem that Rossi is missing a bunch of lead.

icarus · Post by **icarus** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:07 pm

There is a disassembly video from the Oct. 6 test/demo where the technician removes a lead layer (appears about 2-3mm thick) and then scoops off handfuls of a white powder (boron?) before removing the lid proper that has another layer of lead attached. However, this is all external to the heat exchange water circuit so ... more questions than answers.

.... in regards to lead melting and flowing, it is about heat transfer not temperature, if it is producing steam as fast as you can deliver water to hot end, the lead would not get much above 100 C .... i.e. if you take away the heat faster than it is produced the temperature goes down, if you take it away slower, it goes up .... take it away at the same rate (goldilocks) it is produced the temperature stays the same .... so simples, yet so many can't grasp it.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:31 pm

Yes, but you are forgetting where the lead is matters. If it is indeed directly around the core, then it will be at near core temp, taking away the heat transfer differential across the lead. Every boundary of material gives a resultant drop in heat. No Delta-T means no heat transfer. Basic thermo.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:50 pm

ladajo wrote:@Talldave:
In case you missed it in the flurry...

ladajo wrote:
TallDave wrote: Well, I tried fbo for EMC2, who we know is a contractor, and all it says is "Thank You for Contacting Us
Thank you for contacting US Contractor Registration. Someone will be contacting you shortly." which isn't very helpful. I didn't find any reference to EMC2 on the NECO synposis search either. Even assuming this is just a result of my not having a lot of familiarity with the sites, since we don't know who Rossi might have subcontracted with it isn't even clear who exactly we should be searching for.

As best I can tell, Swanson has only said he will not comment at all. Regardless of whether Swanson does actually vouch for the E-cat test results, Rossi bringing his name up suggests either the Navy has some interest, or that Rossi is so insane he is naming the names of people who have no interest.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... 6&_cview=0

https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936 ... R-0044.pdf

Swanson will not vouch for the testing.

Right, I'm aware EMC2 are in fact on there, my point was just that it's not trivial to rule out Rossi being on there, especially if he's a subcontractor to an unknown Navy contractor. It's helpful to know that someone has apparently looked, but I'm not sure how much effort has been put in on that score, and so I'm not confident we can easily dismiss the notion.

icarus · Post by **icarus** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:58 pm

ladajo wrote:Yes, but you are forgetting where the lead is matters. If it is indeed directly around the core, then it will be at near core temp, taking away the heat transfer differential across the lead. Every boundary of material gives a resultant drop in heat. No Delta-T means no heat transfer. Basic thermo.

oh, and you have some inside knowledge about core wall thicknesses, layers of copper, stainless, etc??

... preaching basic thermo is a long way from "why doesn't the lead melt?" ... can't have it both ways smart alec.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:12 pm

For what its worth, I do not think it will be hot enough to melt. I do think that the closer to the reactor core it is, the more likely it will droop.

That said, only Rossi & Co. know what is in the reactor itself. And they ain't talkin. However, the available evidence does not seem to add up for what he claims/says/shows.

My idea is that there should be more lead than he has shown or discussed.

At the end of the day, until someone gets their mitts on a unit to test without Rossi interference, we will not know what the deal is.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:15 pm

TallDave wrote:
ladajo wrote:@Talldave:
In case you missed it in the flurry...

ladajo wrote: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... 6&_cview=0

https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936 ... R-0044.pdf

Swanson will not vouch for the testing.
Right, I'm aware EMC2 are in fact on there, my point was just that it's not trivial to rule out Rossi being on there, especially if he's a subcontractor to an unknown Navy contractor. It's helpful to know that someone has apparently looked, but I'm not sure how much effort has been put in on that score, and so I'm not confident we can easily dismiss the notion.

The US Navy did not buy Rossi's first unit. The navy does not buy things that way, especially at that price. No chance.

cgray45 · Post by **cgray45** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:41 pm

ladajo wrote:
The US Navy did not buy Rossi's first unit. The navy does not buy things that way, especially at that price. No chance.

And name dropping like that is a very good way to make them cease to have any interest. The thing is, her'es what is happening.

Rossi drops a name. Someone involved in events like this-- but they're not allowed to talk to the public. Not without permission and that's common in nearly every government and big business, because you do not want adverse publicity or worse yet, something that might be legally actionable coming out of a subordinate's mouth.

So he won't ocmment on it. Suddenly, that turns into "proof" that the US Navy/Government/Area 51 is working on it. But if you asked Swanson about government tests of giant cyborged dinosaurs, he likely wouldn't be able to say anything officially anyway, because the government has been down this path before where an off the cuff comment suddenly turns into proof of something or another.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:00 am

What will you do if the E-Cat is proven to work?

Find out Rossi's deal with the person making the claims. If I can.

I'm still looking for the magic carburetor. The one that extracts all the wasted energy out of gasoline. What will you do if it works?

The scams have moved on from chemistry/thermo to physics/thermo.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:02 am

Perhaps, but as I said in an earlier post, he has stated that he was only selling 1MW plants for now (to better protect his IP?).

He would get better protection by only selling 1 Tw plants.

cgray45 · Post by **cgray45** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:43 am

MSimon wrote:
Perhaps, but as I said in an earlier post, he has stated that he was only selling 1MW plants for now (to better protect his IP?).
He would get better protection by only selling 1 Tw plants.

He woudl get far better protection by demonstrating a working plant and getting patent protection. As it is right now, he *has* no IP claims--at th emost he might have claims for breach of contract if someone examined the magic box.

But here's another thing, and another reason I think this is a scam-- because everyone does understand just *how* many regulatory agencies in the US, Europe, and just about every other nation are *Not* going to be satisfied with a "Trust me, it won't explode/burp gamma rays/emit noxious fumes", right?

If he's saying he won't let anyone look at it, then congratulations, you've just narrowed your market to hermits and Somalia.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:54 pm

cgray45 wrote:
MSimon wrote:
Perhaps, but as I said in an earlier post, he has stated that he was only selling 1MW plants for now (to better protect his IP?).
He would get better protection by only selling 1 Tw plants.
He woudl get far better protection by demonstrating a working plant and getting patent protection. As it is right now, he *has* no IP claims--at th emost he might have claims for breach of contract if someone examined the magic box.

But here's another thing, and another reason I think this is a scam-- because everyone does understand just *how* many regulatory agencies in the US, Europe, and just about every other nation are *Not* going to be satisfied with a "Trust me, it won't explode/burp gamma rays/emit noxious fumes", right?

If he's saying he won't let anyone look at it, then congratulations, you've just narrowed your market to hermits and Somalia.

It seems no matter how often it is repeated, posters here don't get it.
It is impossible for Rossi to get a patent on cold fusion here. The patent office will not consider patents for this area, being convinced by DoE that it is impossible. Presumably his patent attorney is trying, but even if successful, it will take years.

I think there is no doubt that the E-Cat produces anomalous heat, although the amount can be questioned. One of the better reports is this one:
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/Report_ ... 6_2011.pdf
Perhaps you consider Hanno Essén and Sven Kullander to be incompetent?

I would be interested in seeing a reference that shows anyone needs a permit for an atmospheric pressure industrial heater. (Not for domestic use.)

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:49 pm

Hampus
November 24th, 2011 at 5:53 AM

Hi Rossi

When will the experiment in Bologna and Uppsala university start?

Andrea Rossi
November 24th, 2011 at 9:27 AM

Dear Hampus:
Soon, but remember that such R&D will be closed doors made and not public. I repeat: no more public tests will be made. We will make only closed doors R&D and tests for our Customers made along the test protocols agreed upon the purchasing contracts. No more information will be released until proper patent protection will be granted. Too many vultures fly around, ready to steal critic info. Look to what is going on around the Balcans: there are clowns saying they have a technology copied from us, actually they have just a moke up, waiting for the piece of info they need to make a real copy. They believed we would have been selling in October the small E-Cats, so announced they would have made a demo in october ( buying a model, disguising it as a copy made by them). But it was just a trap we made. Conclusion: from now on we will be more sealed than ever, and we will be open exclusively with our Customers.
To put for sale the small unts we need:
1- safety certification
2- granted patents
We are working on both the issues and I think they will be addressed within 1 to 2 years from now.
Warm Regards,
A.R.