10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Am
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 5:21 pm

Post by Am »

ladajo wrote:
Am wrote:
ladajo wrote:Idiot, no matter how you slice it.
Indeed, you are.
You just lost all sorts of credibility. Too bad.
I never had any to lose! But you have, and you will.

ScottL
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

JoeP wrote:
ladajo wrote:
JoeP wrote:Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.
I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.
Yeah, but I thought Rossi said he was only selling 1MW plants right now?

Anyway, back to the Massachusetts story. If Rossi knows ahead of time he will turn it down, he must know it will impact his credibility further..? What is the point? Just to say MIT had interest? Seems weak.
Sounds like a standard Rossi tactic. He met with NASA, why? To say they had interest. He's met with other notable groups that have observed his device, all to say they had interest. Of course every single group so far has either said they wouldn't be doing business with him, it didn't work, or would not comment.

This is Andrea Rossi we're talking about here....it makes perfect sense....to him.

ScottL
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

Am wrote:
ladajo wrote:
Am wrote: Indeed, you are.
You just lost all sorts of credibility. Too bad.
I never had any to lose! But you have, and you will.
Am, I by no means agree with ladajo much (see any of our threads in general) but he's intelligent and right in this situation. You're also right in that you have no credibility and have also turned to defending Rossi by name calling. You should revisit the posting guidelines. If you're going to ignore my advice, please do continue to troll, the quicker you're gone, the less spam we have to read.

polyill
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:29 am

Post by polyill »

JoeP wrote:
ladajo wrote:
JoeP wrote:Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.
I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.
Yeah, but I thought Rossi said he was only selling 1MW plants right now?

Anyway, back to the Massachusetts story. If Rossi knows ahead of time he will turn it down, he must know it will impact his credibility further..? What is the point? Just to say MIT had interest? Seems weak.
Actually with MIT being a (if not the) representative of the mainstream science, he can always say he's being hunted down and dismissed because of him being a breakthrough, which MIT "can't afford" to handle.

And it's not to just say MIT had interest. It's as good a publicity as any other. Which is what he only needs.

parallel
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:24 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Giorgio wrote:
TallDave wrote:Aussie guy has been turned down! Andrea says he will only sell 1MW units.

The Defkalion product should be interesting.

Rossi futures trending negative on light volume, pending Rossi's next customer and their level of mysteriousness...
I guess Aussie Guy problem was that he was lacking a fundamental characteristic to become a customer of Rossi.
He was not Mysterious at all, but a real guy willing to put his face and name into this story ;)
Your guesses are appallingly biased.
What will you do if the E-Cat is proven to work? Slink off quietly or claim you knew that it did all along and that you never ran the guy down?
With Rossi getting involved with MIT I expect the back pedaling to start shortly. Can you still imagine a fraud would do that?

Betruger
Posts: 2311
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Betruger »

parallel wrote:or claim you knew that it did all along
Where do you come up with this stuff?

Rick Meisinger
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Post by Rick Meisinger »

Am wrote:http://www.statehousenews.com/skedtuesday.htm
EDITOR'S NOTE: According to Sen. Bruce Tarr, Andrea Rossi, "the Italian scientist who claims to have developed the world's first nuclear cold fusion reactor is coming to the State House tomorrow to explore the prospects of developing the device and producing it in Massachusetts."   Tarr's office says Rossi plans to visit Tuesday morning for two days of meeting with government officials and representatives of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University Massachusetts and Northeastern University.  "Mr. Rossi's reactor, if successfully proven and developed, has the potential to change the way the world deals with energy," Tarr said in a statement.
Here is Sen. Tarr's statement on this: http://www.tarrtalk.com/2011/11/cold-fu ... oston.html
It will be interesting to see what MIT's position is on this.

icarus
Posts: 819
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:48 am

Post by icarus »

Rossi is bringing the big, fat cold fusion chicken home to roost and sh!t in the nest MIT feathered for itself 22 years ago ...

... way to go, time to suck it up, buttercups. He has a sense of the dramatic if nothing else.

Maybe he could get Robert Park along for the demo too?

Giorgio
Posts: 2779
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

Am wrote:
ladajo wrote:
Am wrote: Indeed, you are.
You just lost all sorts of credibility. Too bad.
I never had any to lose! But you have, and you will.
I think you watch too much TV drama. I fail to see what should anyone not believing in Rossi's unproved and fantastic (or fantasy) claims have to loose.
Or we are not credible just because we request that such amazing claims should be supported by some REAL experimental data?

Here is what Rossi said on his blog about the offer to test one of his machines in an independent, quick and cheap (10K euro) way:
"The proposal of Celani is just a provocation, and an insult to all the people that already made tests.
We are working for our Customers, not for the curiosity of our competitors.
By the way: Celani is using since decades the money of the taxpayer to make his apparatuses: he should employ his time to make worth the public money he is using, instead of going to try to “test” the work of others."

Andrea Rossi, 21 November 2011
This is plain nonsense on so many levels than only human being with no critic sense can actually believe or support such a statement.
As for public money, well, should we remember how much he received when he delivered is "amazing 20% TEG" device that never worked? But I guess that when he is wasting taxpayers money than it is not so important, he is ROSSI after all!

Wake up Am.

Giorgio
Posts: 2779
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

parallel wrote:Your guesses are appallingly biased.
My guess was an ironic one, as it looks that all what Rossi's customers have in common till date is that they are "unknown". If you do not find this weird I have lot of interesting business proposals for you.

parallel wrote:What will you do if the E-Cat is proven to work? Slink off quietly or claim you knew that it did all along and that you never ran the guy down?
Why should I do that? I have no issues in being corrected and proven wrong, provided that it is done with facts and data, not with a "believe me because I say so" argument.
It's Rossi's claims and it's up to him to prove them, not to me to prove him wrong. Until he will offer a real proof believing him is just a matter of blind faith, but I am agnostic, so he will not find any support in me.

parallel wrote:With Rossi getting involved with MIT I expect the back pedaling to start shortly. Can you still imagine a fraud would do that?
Yeah, you said exactly the same words when he signed with UoB, and we are still waiting.....

JoeP
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:10 am

Post by JoeP »

polyill wrote:
JoeP wrote:
ladajo wrote: I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.
Yeah, but I thought Rossi said he was only selling 1MW plants right now?

Anyway, back to the Massachusetts story. If Rossi knows ahead of time he will turn it down, he must know it will impact his credibility further..? What is the point? Just to say MIT had interest? Seems weak.
Actually with MIT being a (if not the) representative of the mainstream science, he can always say he's being hunted down and dismissed because of him being a breakthrough, which MIT "can't afford" to handle.

And it's not to just say MIT had interest. It's as good a publicity as any other. Which is what he only needs.
Maybe you are right. I was thinking just now that perhaps Rossi is really just trying to set up competing interests. Get Massachusetts to make some conditional offers so he can leverage that against other offers without actually moving forward on a deal. Drive up incentives, etc. This is a valid strategy and works with either a real product or intentional fraud.

Luzr
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:23 pm

Post by Luzr »

parallel wrote: What will you do if the E-Cat is proven to work?
I would be happy, just like everybody else.
Slink off quietly or claim you knew that it did all along and that you never ran the guy down?
I would apologize for being a snake. No problem.
With Rossi getting involved with MIT I expect the back pedaling to start shortly. Can you still imagine a fraud would do that?
Definitely. Cannot you see a pattern?

Rossi tries to "getting involved" with anybody he can. Later Rossi's cheerleaders claim "he is involved with MIT" while all that happened is Rossi speaking with somebody in MIT, perhaps promising some joint research that will never materialize (just like with UoB), trying to get them sing some NDA's (to "protect Rossi's IP", in reality IP = scam) and perhaps to do best to "involved party" to keep silent afterwards. Maybe fish for some wishful scientists on the way (Focardi).

I used to be 50:50 e-cat opinions. Now I am like 10:90, and that 10 means that some unexplained fenomena is happening sometimes in e-cat and Rossi needs to buy more time and money to finish ecat by doing a scam. I do not believe a nit about 1MW plant and its customers.

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

JoeP wrote:
ladajo wrote:
JoeP wrote:Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.
I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.
Yeah, but I thought Rossi said he was only selling 1MW plants right now?

Anyway, back to the Massachusetts story. If Rossi knows ahead of time he will turn it down, he must know it will impact his credibility further..? What is the point? Just to say MIT had interest? Seems weak.
I had seen where Rossi had posted that they would sell 1MW but consider sales down to 100KW. That was the basis that aussieguy submitted the purchase offer on. In fact, as far as I could tell, he submitted exactly in accordance with how it was requested. Rossi himself has (again) come out and said, "<sic> That's not what I meant, there has been a misunderstanding". The silly part is it is exactly what the website said.

In any event, the comedy continues...

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

ladajo wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
I wrote: From what I can find quickly wrt gamma shielding, your post above suggests that the frequency of the radiation does NOT matter in the halving distance. Is that what you are saying? Would the same power of 6MeV gamma require the same thickness as 350keV? Is that what you are saying?
Where does it stop, frequency wise?
Michael Lee?
I was playing with this: http://www.radprocalculator.com/Gamma.aspx

And it says that to go from 500mrem/hr down to 5mrem/hr you need 3.5 centimeters of lead.
So with 11.3g/cc of lead, figuring for arguments sake a 30x30x30 container to shield the core, based on a wild ass guess from the photos and such, that would be a volume 33.5x33.5x33.5 or 37595.375 - the interior volume 30x30x30 (27000) or 10595.375cc of lead. With given density, 10595.375*11.3/1000 or 119kg (or ~264lbs for non-metric types)) of lead shielding.
Let's assume that there are 10 modules per bank in the container, each with 3 reactors per the photos here:

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW ... uccessful/
100 E-Cat modules, each with 3 reaction chambers in them, for a total of 300 reaction chambers. An additional 20 or so units had been installed on the top of the shipping container, compared to the earlier photos and videos we had seen
This is a 20 foot container, so each module including total package could be no more than 20/10 or 2 feet across. You can argue from the photos that they are about 1 foot high. But, as seen in the pics, they are wrapped in insulation (not shielding), so that means the module containre itself is smaller.

In any event, 100 modules using our 33.5x33.5x33.5 OD shielding box, would give about 11,900kg or 26,400lbs of shielding weight to the container. A standard 20ft container is rated for:
Subtracting the tare mass of the container itself, the maximum amount of cargo per TEU is reduced to approximately 21,600 kilograms (48,000 lb).[4]
per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foo ... alent_unit

So we can see that Rossi is burning up over 50% of his weight rating just with shielding, and this does not count the actual equipment and hardware.

And from here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Photo ... E-Cat_Test
we can see no evidence of 3.5 centimeter shielding in the packaging, nor have we seen any such ting in his previous stand alone units here:
http://pesn.com/2011/05/02/9501822_NyTe ... Catalyzer/

I guess good counter arguments are that we do not know the gamma energy levels, and that we do not know the actual internal construct of a "module", as well as we do not know the actual source rate of the reaction.

I would offer that given the photos, and basic physics, that we do know some things. The gamma energies can probably be assumed to lay between .5 and 1.5 MeV which would be fine for the shielding estimate. We can also assuem that the 3 reators in a module look very similar to what is shown, but inside the heat exchanger box. Rossi could either build one shielding box (which is inferred in one photo caption, but not at all evident given the box itself), or go with 3 seperate shielding units, one for each reactor. I would posit that the weight would still be considerable given that 3 smaller boxes would still need 3.5cm for a realistic reduction in dose rates (factor of 100).
I know I date myself by using mrem as a dose rate, but it is what I grew up with and comfortable in my brain. To put it in context, 500mrem is the annual limit for navy radiation workers.

I looks pretty like a shaky story when you compare photos, statements and facts. I am having a hard time believing the "small amount of lead" for the "gammas" story.
Interesting analysis.

You should note that Rossi says that the flowing water is NOT in the gamma ray flux.
Andrea Rossi
November 18th, 2011 at 5:29 PM
Dear Charlie Zimmerman:
1- no
...
A.R.

Charlie Zimmerman
November 18th, 2011 at 3:54 PM
Dear Mr. Rossi,

Dr. Focardi mentioned in a recent interview that there is gamma radiation while the device is running but that it is shielded (something I recall you mentioning as well). I hadn’t heard you comment on this before but…

1) Is the water in the gamma ray flux?
...

Best Regards
This means that the shielding must be between the 'reaction chamber' and the water surrounding it. This is shown in the patent with layers of boron and lead and I think stainless surrounding the 'core'.

Rossi claims shielding uses Boron in addition to Lead. Unless there are neutrons, I don't really understand the Boron claim. Of course, the patent also claims three body fusion and fission as well, so ... whatever.

If the shielding is between chamber and water, then the heat must also be transfered through the lead shielding which is also interesting.

EDIT - What is with the resolution of these pictures? It's 2011 for God's sake. Get a real camera, NyTeknik.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

ladajo
Posts: 6204
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:18 pm
Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

And given the existing phots of naked "reactors", it is very likely there is little to no shielding. To the point of "why have it?"

But again, we do not know the source dose rate. But if it is so low as to only require .5 or at most 1cm of shielding, (which I have a hard time believing could be crammed into the reactors we have seen), that is hard and fast approaching the no point to add it idea.

And if it does matter, ie, no water gets exposed to hard x-rays, then that would suggest that more than a thin layer is required.

I agree, boron is pointless. Next he will be telling us it is borated-poly, which will make me laugh harder. I really think he just makes stuff up as he goes along, and this does not lend to his credibility.

I really do hope he has something, but as I have said before, he goes to lengths, it would seem, to convince anyone with a modicum of critical thinking skills that he does not. Sigh.

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