10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

How's BLP doing these days, I wonder? Not much news anymore...

The only news from BLP in the last 10 years has been press releases aimed to milk out more money from their investors, IMHO.

[Giorgio]

Aussie guy has been turned down! Andrea says he will only sell 1MW units.

The Defkalion product should be interesting.

Rossi futures trending negative on light volume, pending Rossi's next customer and their level of mysteriousness...

I guess Aussie Guy problem was that he was lacking a fundamental characteristic to become a customer of Rossi.
He was not Mysterious at all, but a real guy willing to put his face and name into this story

[Kahuna]

Aussie guy has been turned down! Andrea says he will only sell 1MW units.

The Defkalion product should be interesting.

Rossi futures trending negative on light volume, pending Rossi's next customer and their level of mysteriousness...

I guess Aussie Guy problem was that he was lacking a fundamental characteristic to become a customer of Rossi.
He was not Mysterious at all, but a real guy willing to put his face and name into this story

Perhaps, but as I said in an earlier post, he has stated that he was only selling 1MW plants for now (to better protect his IP?). He now claims 13 more units have been sold to mystery client #1 which will no doubt remain a mystery through all those units. This will put Rossi below the radar for some time unless UoB and/or Uppsala actually gets an eCat and funding.

I think the next episode in the saga is likely to be Defkalion's (DGT) 3rd party testor. They claim a better COP (20-30) and control than Rossi and even claim that Rossi has signed some kind of realease relinquishing IP rights in their Hyperion product line. Sounds like DGT wants to use the 3rd party test results in marketing so I would assume they would have to (1) choose a reputable test firm and (2) publish the methods and results in some detail. If they don't do this after the promises they have made of late, they are toast IMO. It would be a hoot if they actually had the goods and beat Rossi at his own game.

Fun to watch even if the odds are long.

[ladajo]

@Talldave:
In case you missed it in the flurry...

It would be visible on fbo.gov or neco.
Paul Swanson says he can not vouch for the test, regardless of what Rossi says.

Well, I tried fbo for EMC2, who we know is a contractor, and all it says is "Thank You for Contacting Us
Thank you for contacting US Contractor Registration. Someone will be contacting you shortly." which isn't very helpful. I didn't find any reference to EMC2 on the NECO synposis search either. Even assuming this is just a result of my not having a lot of familiarity with the sites, since we don't know who Rossi might have subcontracted with it isn't even clear who exactly we should be searching for.

As best I can tell, Swanson has only said he will not comment at all. Regardless of whether Swanson does actually vouch for the E-cat test results, Rossi bringing his name up suggests either the Navy has some interest, or that Rossi is so insane he is naming the names of people who have no interest.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... 6&_cview=0

https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N68936 ... R-0044.pdf

Swanson will not vouch for the testing.

[Ivy Matt]

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.c ... ent-126867

Andrea Rossi
November 21st, 2011 at 11:25 PM

Dear Felipe From Chile:
You are right, we are organizing this.
BY THE WAY: WE COLLECT FROM NOW THE NAMES OF ALL THE PERSONS OR ENITITES INTERESTED TO BUY AN E-CAT OF 10 KW. IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE LIST, THE PERSONS IN THE WAITING LIST WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFIRM OR NOT THEIR ORDER AT 400 EURO/THERMAL KW. DO NOT SEND MONEY, WE WILL ACCEPT THE ORDERS ONLY IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE WAITING LIST, COMBINING OUR LIST WITH THE WAITING LIST ORGANIZED BY OUR BROTHERS OF HYDROFUSION .
WARM REGARDS,
ANDREA ROSSI, LEONARDO CORP. (PRESIDENT)

http://ecat.com/

Caveat emptor.

[polyill]

"BROTHERS" ? o_O How's that for a business talk ?

Edit: Oh, BTW, I've figured out where are all those missing kWs, delta between the claims and the actual output of the e-cats.
It's all gone into Rossi's "WARM REGARDS"

[tomclarke]

And what came of the NASA testing?

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2011/11/ ... os-failed/

[Am]

http://www.statehousenews.com/skedtuesday.htm

EDITOR'S NOTE: According to Sen. Bruce Tarr, Andrea Rossi, "the Italian scientist who claims to have developed the world's first nuclear cold fusion reactor is coming to the State House tomorrow to explore the prospects of developing the device and producing it in Massachusetts."   Tarr's office says Rossi plans to visit Tuesday morning for two days of meeting with government officials and representatives of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University Massachusetts and Northeastern University.  "Mr. Rossi's reactor, if successfully proven and developed, has the potential to change the way the world deals with energy," Tarr said in a statement.

[ladajo]

So now ROSSI will start claiming validity based on being able to staple "MIT" to his marketing as he has UoB. Although, again and again, UoB has denied working with him.
When is Rossi going to shyte or get off the pot? It would appear he is grabbing at straws.

What a crock.

He could so easily corner the market by providing a single unit for independant verification. That act alone would boost his sales by orders of magnitude, even with results pending as folks line up "to be the first".
And if it fails independant test, he could still claim that it was a corrupt test, and line up some fools for sales...

Idiot, no matter how you slice it.

[JoeP]

Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.

[Am]

Idiot, no matter how you slice it.

Indeed, you are.

[ladajo]

The 1/10 thickness (lead) for 350 KeV gammas is 1 cm. I leave it to you to provide the rest of the numbers.

You won't like the results.

1 ev = 1.60217646 × 10-19 joules

1000 w/(350,000 *1.6e-19)= 17,857,142,857,142,857 gammas a second.

say 1.79e18 gammas a second let us say we spread that over 1 m^ for convenience. So you have 1.8 e14 gammas a second Ans want to reduce it to 1 gamma/cm^2/second.

About 14 cm of lead should do it. So it is 10,000 *14 cc. 140,000 ccs. Density of lead is 11.3 g/cc. = 1,582 Kg. A little over a metric ton and a half. Doable. Even if it goes to 50% more than that. Higher energies will require more shielding as shielding effectiveness goes down with increasing energy. If most of your photons are above 1 MeV - weight problems.

From what I can find quickly wrt gamma shielding, your post above suggests that the frequency of the radiation does NOT matter in the halving distance. Is that what you are saying? Would the same power of 6MeV gamma require the same thickness as 350keV? Is that what you are saying?
Where does it stop, frequency wise?

Michael Lee?

I was playing with this: http://www.radprocalculator.com/Gamma.aspx

And it says that to go from 500mrem/hr down to 5mrem/hr you need 3.5 centimeters of lead.
So with 11.3g/cc of lead, figuring for arguments sake a 30x30x30 container to shield the core, based on a wild ass guess from the photos and such, that would be a volume 33.5x33.5x33.5 or 37595.375 - the interior volume 30x30x30 (27000) or 10595.375cc of lead. With given density, 10595.375*11.3/1000 or 119kg (or ~264lbs for non-metric types)) of lead shielding.
Let's assume that there are 10 modules per bank in the container, each with 3 reactors per the photos here:

http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW ... uccessful/

100 E-Cat modules, each with 3 reaction chambers in them, for a total of 300 reaction chambers. An additional 20 or so units had been installed on the top of the shipping container, compared to the earlier photos and videos we had seen

This is a 20 foot container, so each module including total package could be no more than 20/10 or 2 feet across. You can argue from the photos that they are about 1 foot high. But, as seen in the pics, they are wrapped in insulation (not shielding), so that means the module containre itself is smaller.

In any event, 100 modules using our 33.5x33.5x33.5 OD shielding box, would give about 11,900kg or 26,400lbs of shielding weight to the container. A standard 20ft container is rated for:

Subtracting the tare mass of the container itself, the maximum amount of cargo per TEU is reduced to approximately 21,600 kilograms (48,000 lb).[4]

per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foo ... alent_unit

So we can see that Rossi is burning up over 50% of his weight rating just with shielding, and this does not count the actual equipment and hardware.

And from here:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Photo ... E-Cat_Test
we can see no evidence of 3.5 centimeter shielding in the packaging, nor have we seen any such ting in his previous stand alone units here:
http://pesn.com/2011/05/02/9501822_NyTe ... Catalyzer/

I guess good counter arguments are that we do not know the gamma energy levels, and that we do not know the actual internal construct of a "module", as well as we do not know the actual source rate of the reaction.

I would offer that given the photos, and basic physics, that we do know some things. The gamma energies can probably be assumed to lay between .5 and 1.5 MeV which would be fine for the shielding estimate. We can also assuem that the 3 reators in a module look very similar to what is shown, but inside the heat exchanger box. Rossi could either build one shielding box (which is inferred in one photo caption, but not at all evident given the box itself), or go with 3 seperate shielding units, one for each reactor. I would posit that the weight would still be considerable given that 3 smaller boxes would still need 3.5cm for a realistic reduction in dose rates (factor of 100).
I know I date myself by using mrem as a dose rate, but it is what I grew up with and comfortable in my brain. To put it in context, 500mrem is the annual limit for navy radiation workers.

I looks pretty like a shaky story when you compare photos, statements and facts. I am having a hard time believing the "small amount of lead" for the "gammas" story.

[ladajo]

Idiot, no matter how you slice it.

Indeed, you are.

You just lost all sorts of credibility. Too bad.

[ladajo]

Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.

I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.

[JoeP]

Actually, this is a good sign.

The State of Massachusetts will want Rossi to set up shop there if it can be proven he has a bona fide product. They would offer incentives such to have such an industry in the state, if valid. And they are bringing MIT people along to specify terms. Which will include validation, unless you believe that the MIT people are idiots.

Rossi must know there will be these kind of conditions, so the fact that he is even entertaining it is an interesting turn of events.

I think it will turn into another hand waving incident.
I agree that it could be a good thing to nail this down once and for all, but I do not see Rossi making an agreement, I see him fishing if he follows his normal routine. Although I hope that he does something concrete for once.

We already saw here recently where someone offered to BUY a 100KW rig on the condition that it works for 48hours under independant test. Rossi said no. It turns out that was also part of the Defkalion issue with Rossi. He wanted money, they wanted a 48hour independant run. No run meant no money.

Yeah, but I thought Rossi said he was only selling 1MW plants right now?

Anyway, back to the Massachusetts story. If Rossi knows ahead of time he will turn it down, he must know it will impact his credibility further..? What is the point? Just to say MIT had interest? Seems weak.