10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Giorgio]

Edit: Anyone else seen the rumour that NATO is Rossi's customer?

In the last 24 hours every single military organization as well as fortune 500 company has been mentioned as the possible secret customer of Rossi.

[Giorgio]

I guess we must be getting to the violent stage ....

If you consider THIS chit chat to be violent I have to wonder where have you been living till now!

[TallDave]

Rossi quote from NYTEKNIK, ""We had to decrease the power during self sustained mode as the temperature rose too much”, Rossi said after the test."

So, he had to reduce the output power in an uncontrolled self-sustained device, because above 50% power the temperature was too much. So, I am grappling with, had he run it at 100% (with input power to "control" it), he would have gotten the full megawatt and how would the temp have been any different, other than the core itself being at twice the thermal power, which in turn begs the question, "Isn't that bad, based on the first issue?"
How do you run something at 50% power, because it is temp limited, and then be able to run it at 100% power safely by adding energy?

That seemed pretty reasonable -- it's often going to be inherently more dangerous to run a power-generating system on its own feedbacks than with external power. Atomic weapons, for instance, operate on their feedbacks, while nuclear reactors would want to have separate power sources for things like replacing control rods, with a premium on making that power source as reliable as possible (i.e. passive designs using gravity). And this is supposed to be a lot of power density...

Did you see Rossi's answer to what he would improve? "Gaskets." I think he needs to hire some mechanical engineers.

[MSimon]

But as Arthur Schopenhauer used to say:

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

I guess we must be getting to the violent stage ....

All lies pass through three stages.

First - rapt endorsement
Second - scepticism
Third - ridicule

I believe we are in the ridicule stage.

[Giorgio]

Did you see Rossi's answer to what he would improve? "Gaskets." I think he needs to hire some mechanical engineers.

He does not need to hire Engineers, he has "the internet"!
I am sure that he just googled for steam pipeline and found all type of nice PDF and paper that allowed him to size up his 1MWt/h exit pipeline at a reasonable and cheap 2" diameter...... see, what do we need engineers for nowadays?

[ScottL]

But as Arthur Schopenhauer used to say:

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

I guess we must be getting to the violent stage ....

All lies pass through three stages.

First - rapt endorsement
Second - scepticism
Third - ridicule

I believe we are in the ridicule stage.

I dub the third stage, Olive Oil Stage!

[Joseph Chikva]

I agree, my point is that his pricing is not well considered. It smacks more of milking the hype.

He could sell them much cheaper, still make a butt-ton of money, and everyone is happy.

What I saw in that shipping container was not even close to $2 million Euro worth of hardware. In fact, it did not even appear close to $1 Million Euro worth of hardware.

I am repeating, you are wrong about prices.
Rossi's device even if admitting on a second that produces claimed 470 kW or 1 MW is not commercialized. As, what price of installed 1 kW is acceptable for you?
Let's admit - 100$/kW. Ok?
What other consumer properties are claimed? May I missed something?
As commercial device except of price of installed power should provide: acceptable reliability, acceptable cost of fuel cycle, acceptable and certified industrial safety, etc.
But Rossi making promotional show with happy controller of more happy customer in which employed controller has refused water flow twice!!!! is ready to sell his device right now without claiming and proving of all consumer properties. The device "producing" only low quality steam - less suitable for production of electricity. How skilled is controller after that and how serious is that mythical company employing him?

How correct is your estimation of price of installed power if you operate as I understand with electric power and not low parameter heat power?
What price of installed capacity of first really commercial fusion reactor are you waiting for?
By opinion of very skilled people, not less than 5000 USD/kW with slow trend of its further reducing. And this is reality. As large capacitive energy storages with extremely high cost per stored J, superconducting magnets (for note, one set of superconducting magnets for German fusion experiment has been delivered for 110 millions EUR) or resistive magnets with thousands tons of copper and powerful cooling systems, etc.
But why fusion is attractive? Because of steady trend of prices' grow on fossil fuel and lack of ability of renewables to cover energy deficit.

[icarus]

Did you see Rossi's answer to what he would improve? "Gaskets." I think he needs to hire some mechanical engineers.

He does not need to hire Engineers, he has "the internet"!
I am sure that he just googled for steam pipeline and found all type of nice PDF and paper that allowed him to size up his 1MWt/h exit pipeline at a reasonable and cheap 2" diameter...... see, what do we need engineers for nowadays?

Giorgio, you have been most critical of Rossi, derogatory (name-calling idiot, incompetent, etc, etc) and accused him of fraud outright at least several times I believe. I do not know what is common in your neck of the woods but most of it seems very base from where I'm reading it. (Perhaps this is why Italy has such apparently crooked people running its country?)

I'm expecting some serious crow-eating and grovelling from you if/when it turns out to be verifiable ... okay? You are on notice. Rossi will be your master for eternity if this pans out.

Scepticism is fine. Manners are nice too in a civil society.

[icarus]

I agree, my point is that his pricing is not well considered. It smacks more of milking the hype.

He could sell them much cheaper, still make a butt-ton of money, and everyone is happy.

What I saw in that shipping container was not even close to $2 million Euro worth of hardware. In fact, it did not even appear close to $1 Million Euro worth of hardware.

I am repeating, you are wrong about prices.
Rossi's device even if admitting on a second that produces claimed 470 kW or 1 MW is not commercialized. As, what price of installed 1 kW is acceptable for you?
Let's admit - 100$/kW. Ok?
What other consumer properties are claimed? May I missed something?
As commercial device except of price of installed power should provide: acceptable reliability, acceptable cost of fuel cycle, acceptable and certified industrial safety, etc.
But Rossi making promotional show with happy controller of more happy customer in which employed controller has refused water flow twice!!!! is ready to sell his device right now without claiming and proving of all consumer properties. The device "producing" only low quality steam - less suitable for production of electricity. How skilled is controller after that and how serious is that mythical company employing him?

How correct is your estimation of price of installed power if you operate as I understand with electric power and not low parameter heat power?
What price of installed capacity of first really commercial fusion reactor are you waiting for?
By opinion of very skilled people, not less than 5000 USD/kW with slow trend of its further reducing. And this is reality. As large capacitive energy storages with extremely high cost per stored J, superconducting magnets (for note, one set of superconducting magnets for German fusion experiment has been delivered for 110 millions EUR) or resistive magnets with thousands tons of copper and powerful cooling systems, etc.
But why fusion is attractive? Because of steady trend of prices' grow on fossil fuel and lack of ability of renewables to cover energy deficit.

You guys have totally missed the point on pricing this thing .... on the underlying assumption that it is a nickel burning fusion reactor (that is what you have implicitly assumed here) it is the first fusion reactor on the market! How much is that worth?

See anywhere else on the web where you can buy one?

Focusing on details like running costs etc is completely missing the point (until it is common as muck and you can buy 5 different types on the market).

It is somewhat like the first steam engine. Boulton and Watt just tried to sell each one individually for each customer and only later Boulton standardised the models (first engineering example of standardising models for the market). Getting them out the door is the most important thing for Rossi now, regardless of their performance, etc, etc ... and imho he is doing exactly the right thing. If someone wants to buy it, sell it. Historically, that has been the only way to make money on revolutionary new products that have little/no patent protection ... the big guys will be chasing him down.

http://inventors.about.com/library/inve ... lusion.htm

[MSimon]

I'm expecting some serious crow-eating and grovelling from you if/when it turns out to be verifiable ... okay? You are on notice. Rossi will be your master for eternity if this pans out.

And if it doesn't you will be G's servant for the rest of your life. I expect to see you cleaning the bottom of his shoes with your tongue before long.

Scepticism is fine. Manners are nice too in a civil society.

Manners are for salesmen. Engineers have little need for them. Straight talk is way more valuable. At least to other engineers.

[MSimon]

See anywhere else on the web where you can buy one?

No where.

[icarus]

I'm expecting some serious crow-eating and grovelling from you if/when it turns out to be verifiable ... okay? You are on notice. Rossi will be your master for eternity if this pans out.

And if it doesn't you will be G's servant for the rest of your life. I expect to see you cleaning the bottom of his shoes with your tongue before long.

Scepticism is fine. Manners are nice too in a civil society.

Manners are for salesmen. Engineers have little need for them. Straight talk is way more valuable. At least to other engineers.

Yes straight talk is appreciated by engineers. Crassness is unwelcome.

I thought you had a little more class than this M.Simon but as the line in the movie goes

"Hard times always flush out the chumps".

Welcome to the hard times.

[Joseph Chikva]

You guys have totally missed the point on pricing this thing .... on the underlying assumption that it is a nickel burning fusion reactor (that is what you have implicitly assumed here) it is the first fusion reactor on the market!

I said

Rossi's device even if admitting on a second that produces claimed 470 kW or 1 MW is not commercialized.
What other consumer properties are claimed? May I missed something?
As commercial device except of price of installed power should provide: acceptable reliability, acceptable cost of fuel cycle, acceptable and certified industrial safety, etc.

So, again if that works, even in this case that is too far from real market. And you are too optimistic.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio, you have been most critical of Rossi, derogatory (name-calling idiot, incompetent, etc, etc) and accused him of fraud outright at least several times I believe.
Scepticism is fine. Manners are nice too in a civil society.

You believe wrong.
I have been accused of this several times, every single time I ask to quote me where I used those words and every single time I get no reply.

So, let's try again.
Where did I call Rossi Idiot?
Where did accuse him of fraud?
Please QUOTE ME.

As for Incompetent, yes, I strongly believe that he does not have real competence in engineering and especially in thermal engineering. I gave ample proofs and examples that he lacks basic knowledge and planning capacity in those areas and should really seek the assistance of an expert for his safety an the safety of the one around him.
How does his lack of capacity makes of me a not civil person is beyond my understanding.

I'm expecting some serious crow-eating and grovelling from you if/when it turns out to be verifiable ... okay? You are on notice. Rossi will be your master for eternity if this pans out.

Oh please, spare me such a nonsense.
Rossi could as well have stumbled upon an amazing discovery and the e-cat could as well work as he is stating (and I will admit HAPPLY that I was wrong in not believing him), but from here to make him a master for any engineer is a bad taste joke.

If you become rich by winning at the lottery it does not mean that you are a good businessman but simply that you are a lucky person.

[Giorgio]

Yes straight talk is appreciated by engineers. Crassness is unwelcome.

Quit trying to make the victim icarus, we are all adults here and what Msimon is stating is just common sense.

Engineers need to get to the nuts and bolts of the situation to be able to correctly evaluate it and this has to be done regardless if someone will get unhappy in the process.

Rossi has been given plenty of opportunity to prove his claims. He choose not to do so, we chose not to believe him.