10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

Kahuna wrote:I would agree with your demo/test definition and that the recent DGT was clearly a demo (I don't think they even claimed anything else). However, the last examination of the Rossi hot-Cat comes much closer to being a "test" than you intimate IMO. It did happen on Rossi's premises (extensively for IP protection), however the test team was given almost total autonomy and supplied their own instrumentation and protocols. Some potential issues with the testing have been identified (very unlikely indicators of a scam IMO) which the test team plans to address in the next round of "tests" to begin shortly.
One of two things will have to happen to remove doubt. Real sales of the devices will have to occur with customer reports of success. Or, a truly independent testing laboratory--not a group of people selected by the maker, in the maker's premises, using the maker's power supply, under control of the maker--on its own premises, using its own instrumentation certifies the result.

It's not that big a leap to do this. The US Court ordered Joe Newman's generator to be tested by NBS/NIST when he insisted that it was an over-unity device and USPTO denied him a patent. The NBS report was very thorough and showed that, if anything, Newman's generator was less efficient that contemporary technology. Newman to this day, insists that they were wrong and keeps trying to lasso new believers.

Kim later owned up to taking John Hajichristos' statement of 1.6T magnetic fields as truth, rather than verifying it for himself. Being a physicist, he should have realized that 1.6T is at least as strong as the field produced by an MRI machine and would have presented a real health hazard, not to mention pulling the screws out of the table and the nails out of the floor.

To me this simple observation detracts from the credibility of Kim. He's old, and I'll assume from his earlier work that he really, really wants LENR to be real instead of an oft-reported irreproducible phenomenon. I certainly can empathize with him, being nearer the grave than the cradle.

Another thing that occurred to me is why only a single reactor was used for the test, explaining that using hydrogen or helium for the dummy run would have contaminated the test. Back in 2011, DGE stated that they had made at least a dozen operating reactors. Where did they go? Is this like the thousands of reactors that Rossi claimed back in 2011/2012?

All of what's being claimed might well hold water, but it really looks kind of amateurish at this point. Perhaps things will solidify a bit when some big money comes into the picture. I don't know.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Asterix wrote:..snip... Another thing that occurred to me is why only a single reactor was used for the test, explaining that using hydrogen or helium for the dummy run would have contaminated the test. Back in 2011, DGE stated that they had made at least a dozen operating reactors. Where did they go? Is this like the thousands of reactors that Rossi claimed back in 2011/2012?
I thought this as well, at first. However after considering it a bit, I think it is more credible that they used a single machine.

Let us suppose the setup had side-by-side reactors, one primed with argon, and the other, with hydrogen. One can as easily imagine people calling fraud since there are two different reactors there, with unknown interiors. Instead of one black box, there are two, and there is no guarantee the insides are equivalent.

At least with the single unit, the input of argon, followed by the test with hydrogen as the only apparent difference, it removes the possibility of having different hardware inside of two different black boxes as the reason for the disparity of output energy.

Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

JoeP wrote:
Asterix wrote:..snip... Another thing that occurred to me is why only a single reactor was used for the test, explaining that using hydrogen or helium for the dummy run would have contaminated the test. Back in 2011, DGE stated that they had made at least a dozen operating reactors. Where did they go? Is this like the thousands of reactors that Rossi claimed back in 2011/2012?
I thought this as well, at first. However after considering it a bit, I think it is more credible that they used a single machine.

Let us suppose the setup had side-by-side reactors, one primed with argon, and the other, with hydrogen. One can as easily imagine people calling fraud since there are two different reactors there, with unknown interiors. Instead of one black box, there are two, and there is no guarantee the insides are equivalent.

At least with the single unit, the input of argon, followed by the test with hydrogen as the only apparent difference, it removes the possibility of having different hardware inside of two different black boxes as the reason for the disparity of output energy.
No, I would not have let DGE choose which box was the dummy. The test group would flip a coin and then observe the priming of the two units.

Ivy Matt
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Ivy Matt »

SammyM
July 30th, 2013 at 11:43 AM

Dear Andrea Rossi,

About a month ago you wrote,
“Please send your proposals for Sterling Engines to be coupled with the E-Cats (power 5 kW and 10 kW). The best offers will be bought for testing.”

So are you still looking or did you find a good candidate?

Regards,
SammyM
Andrea Rossi
July 30th, 2013 at 9:41 PM

Sammy M:
I arrived to the conclusion that does not exist any Sterling Engine mature for an application to the E-Cat. We received many proposals regarding concepts, prototypes to be developed: we need a product off the shelf.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
This statement has the folks at e-catworld scratching their heads and scrambling to come up with a plausible explanation.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

Sterlings aren't being made any more--I think the last ones were made in 1991.

The engine was made by Honda, anyway.

I think both people quoted meant to say "Stirling Engine". The fact that Rossi doesn't know the difference shows his level of familiarity with the technology, don't you think?

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe


TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

Kahuna wrote:I would agree with your demo/test definition and that the recent DGT was clearly a demo (I don't think they even claimed anything else). However, the last examination of the Rossi hot-Cat comes much closer to being a "test" than you intimate IMO. It did happen on Rossi's premises (extensively for IP protection), however the test team was given almost total autonomy and supplied their own instrumentation and protocols. Some potential issues with the testing have been identified (very unlikely indicators of a scam IMO) which the test team plans to address in the next round of "tests" to begin shortly.
Thanks! I didn't know they had another test planned. More tests is always better.

Thanks for all your coverage Axil, much appreciated!
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

Thanks, the comments are hilarious. "Science denial! You idiot trolls and your ad hominems! Keep it up and I'll ban you!" Good stuff.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

303
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by 303 »

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anomalous

abnormal, incongruous or inconsistent

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incongruous

out of keeping or place; inappropriate; unbecoming


hard to disagree with the 7 learned professors..

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

<giggle>
Andrea Rossi
August 8th, 2013 at 10:12 AM
Chris:
This is a very interesting point. As a matter of fact, we have protected the outside of the E-Cat from any kind of radiation emitted by the reactor, but we did not think about the eventuality of EMP directed toward the plant, specifically in case of nuclear attack.
We have to think about this interesting issue, hoping that it will never happen…but, nevertheless, you are right: we have to think about anything, even if remotely possible… I hope and think impossible at all: if not so, the E-Cat will be not much of use anyway, since the 4th world war will be fought by throwing stones.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Nice to know ECAT is accidently nuclear war proof.

But even better for the Rossibots:
Andrea Rossi
August 7th, 2013 at 10:01 AM
Fabio 82:
Sorry, no photos at all will be anymore released to the public until we will decide to present the working plants.
The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results- positive, negative or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential. It will take an unforeseeable amount of time before we will make public any precise information regarding the E-Cat under scrutiny in the USA.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
So what he has here is an open ended non-committal promise.
In a nutshell, he is setting himself to waffle as long as he pleases.
Enjoy your "unforeseeable amount of time" Rossibots.
Can you say "vaporware"?
<giggle>
<munch, munch...munch>
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

My understanding is that his new partners have basically told him to shut up.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

FYI

A very positive article on the main results of ICCF18 and the Defkalion demo appeared in the Greek major popular science magazine BHMA science (http://www.tovima.gr/science/article/?aid=524943)
Our readers who had read the last episode of the "cold fusion in Greece” thriller (see http://www.tovima.gr/science/ article /? aid = 486578) had taken two notes: First, that Defkalion Green Technologies (DGT internationally) moved the headquarters to Vancouver, Canada. Second, that by the end of the summer they would present us with concrete proof their reactor can turn from a controversial experiment into a product capable of supporting a completely new energy era.

I was thinking intensely what exactly happened during the eight months of 'emigration' and what would the current product be when, late July, came the first bizarre information: Defkalion was negotiating the opening of new offices at Syngrou avenue, in Athens, and they had "close contact" with Fasmatech, a company manufacturing spectrographs-to order, at "Democritos" Research Institute technology hub. What had actually happened? I requested an interview with Defkalion`s CEO Alexandros Xanthoulis and his reply confirmed the information I had received: he was back in Athens-Greece and he would meet me at their new offices which are now the headquarters for Greece, the Balkans, and the Middle East.

But before I refer to the questions I asked him and the responses I received it is necessary to inform you of what else happened on this "hot July” to the field of Cold fusion. So many things happened that Cold Fusion is anything but “cold “since...


Battleship Missouri

As all physics students know by now, the famous announcement by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, in 1989, that they had produced nuclear fusion in room temperature, was eventually called "the biggest fiasco in the history of physics”.A group of physics professors which was formed by the U.S. President ruled that the announcement was based on a bunch of errors of the two researchers, their careers were destroyed, the U.S. Office of Patent and Trademark refused hereafter to accept similar patents and many books were written that ridiculed Cold Fusion scientists calling them "dreamers”. However, the way which the two scientists were silenced as well as some unexplained results of similar experiments, rallied many of researchers who insisted on pursuing cold fusion to an annual conference, called ICCF.

This year the 18th ICCF took place in University of Missouri, between 21 and 27 of July. There were 83 speakers and was attended by scientists from 26 countries. What the scientists of “Physics Orthodoxy" were expecting from this conference was one more attempt of the "unorthodox” to offer another theoretical foundation on their unfounded fantasies. Instead they were surprised when two well-known Japanese researchers offered scientific explanations to the mysteries associated to Defkalion`s technology.

Akito Takahashi supported that the key was the unique formation of a Tetrahedral Symmetric Cluster of four deuterons, which then fuse to Be8 before fissioning to alpha particles (two neutrons and two protons as in nuclei of stellar helium He2+).

On his side, Dr. Tadahiko Mizuno said that " when heavy electrons enter the outer shell of a proton, the radius of the hydrogen atom becomes exponentially smaller with respect to the weight of the heavy electrons, bringing the protons closer together. When this happens, the probability of tunneling fusion increases exponentially The nuclear reaction can be controlled with this energy production method of bringing protons and heavy electrons together inside nanoparticles. This brings within reach the goal of developing a practical nanoparticle energy reactor”. Dr. Mizuno`s measurements also confirmed last year's announcement at the ICCF by John Hatzichristos, Defkalion`s Director of Technology, of the existence of isotope pairs in their reaction.

Even more monstrous for the "Physics Orthodoxy” though was the thesis of Yeong E. Kim, a highly qualified U.S. Professor of Physics at the Purdue University. His thesis was co-signed by DGT’s John Chatzichristos. Under the title "Theoretical analysis and mechanisms of reaction for experimental results of hydrogen-nickel systems”, their work explained what might be happening in Defkalion`s reactor in order to get "unreasonably multiplied” energy output than that consumed.

Kim explained to the conference that Hyperion (Defkalion’s reactor) contains a core of metallic nickel foam that is heated from 180 ° C to 849 ° C, with a plasma arch. After that, you observe a sharp increase of the magnetic field within the reactor between 0.6 to 1,6 Tesla. This according to Kim indicates that "the reaction results in very strong electric fields E, currents I and magnetic fields B”. He also reported that at the Defkalion tests that he attended, excess heat was produced only from the even isotopes of nickel (Ni 58, 60, 62 and 64), while odd isotopes (Ni 61) do not produce excess heat.Completing his presentation on the reaction, Kim reported that he did not detect any other gamma radiation other than that between 50 keV and 300 keV and presented graphs indicating excess heat output and a control system that could start, stop and control the reaction at will.

Then he proceeded to a theoretical explanation of this phenomenon: He described his theory of Boson Cluster-State Nuclear Fusion (BCSNF), which he extended to include hydrogen–metal systems, and said that the predicted values of the reaction can be compared with the experimental values measured during of the Defkalion`s reaction. In his opinion, what happens is that the magnetic fields created enforce the magnetic alignment of the nickel atoms, which in turn create local magnetic traps (LMT) of bosons on the surface of nickel dust, although these traps have a short lifespan. And he summed up: "The report of the mixture of hydrogen and nickel dust to the plasma arch generates a magnetic field that leads atoms in Rydberg state and allows to create magnetic traps at the nanoscale. The fusion of the captive bosons on the nickel surface produces excess heat and local discharge sparks ".

According to Kim, this self-sustained reaction could be improved by increasing the density of deuterium. This must be tested in the next generation of Defkalion`s reactor (code named Hyperion R-6). This will happen after a “on-line real-time” mass spectrometer - which has been already ordered from the Greek company Fasmatech and it is been currently manufactured - becomes operational.”The problem has been solved," Kim concluded with enthusiasm and he declared eager to speak to any other theorist of physics in order to convince them. And, as he stated in an interview (http://egooutpeters.blogspot.gr/) ”at Vancouver I witnessed a protocoled successful test with results leaving no doubt about plenty of heat in excess and good control of the device. I am an optimist regarding the principles, but also for discovering and or creating the details which I plan to work on very hard in collaboration with my DGTG friends”.

The striptease dare

Scientifically speaking, the cold fusion arsenal had now been increased dramatically. However, for the skeptics of the experimental reaction the question remained as to how the measurements and the theoretical explanations were the results of a controlled environment and the ability of the reactor to repeat the process over and over again.

And then... something unexpected happened: On Tuesday 23 of July Defkalion broadcasted to the ICCF conference (and around the world through the Internet) an eight hour long live experimental running of the reactor.The experiment took a place at Defkalion`s laboratories in Milan, under the supervision of Mats Lewan, an independent observer (editor of the Swedish energy magazine «NyTeknik» and electrical engineer).

This broadcast was preceded by another broadcast the previous day, for an Italian TV channel and a radio station. During the eight-hour experiment Defkalion`s technicians emptied all the hydrogen from the Hyperion chambers and they filled it up with argon. Then they refilled with hydrogen and put it into operation. Although the process of filling with argon was sped up (normally would require many more hours) resulting in reduction of the system`s output performance, at the end they managed to prove that by consuming 2.7 KW of power the reactor produced 5.5 kW of heat. The approximately 1,000 online viewers of the experiment remained largely mystified by the results. Most of them were wondering if there were any hidden cables that were secretly powering the system. However an oversight of the observer, Mats Lewan, as he was franticly checking the set up blew a fuse and sank the rest of the building in the dark! After that it was rather obvious that Hyperion`s electric circuit was a closed one and free of any mischief.

The impact of this live demonstration was extremely positive. Everybody applauded Defkalion`s courage to "open its cards" in such a bold way. Physicist Steven E. Jones - who fought against Pons and Fleischmann, back in 1989 and who participated in the conference, said: " From my observations, this is a project well worth paying attention to - interesting work and the team is showing admirable courage to open the project to scientific scrutiny in this manner.”. He also said that "the fact that they have observed a huge magnetic anomaly (in the reactor) does not surprise me. I expect it”. After 24 years ... he was expecting it. But where are Pons and Fleischmann now, who were so harshly ridiculed?

The reaction of the Forbes magazine to the noise that the broadcast of the experiment generated was especially characteristic: When the special columnist Marc Gibbs wrote an article titled "Defkalion broadcasts live cold fusion experiment- now "(see http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2013/07/23 /defkalion demonstrates-lenrlive-right-now /) ...he lost his job! Trying to figure out why he was dismissed brings a lot of thoughts to mind. But most important was the earth shuttering reply that came next day: The famous Nobel prize laureate of the eponymous Josephson effect - Professor of Cambridge, Brian David Josephson- posted to YouTube the experiment (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHEtnTO3h6s), noting: " Will this be the event that finally leads to acceptance of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion)?”





Interview: Alexandros Xanthoulis

I went up to the new offices of Defkalion via an elevator that needed a special security code to operate. "Does this mean that you returned to Greece and abandoned Vancouver?” I asked the CEO and economist Alexandros Xanthoulis.

"We always said that we would be back, although we were not sure that we could accomplish it that soon. We are not abandoning Vancouver though, as we similarly maintaining our other research center in Milan also. Our Athens office is a subsidiary of the Canadian company and covers the Middle East and the Balkans, as Milan covers Europe. The main partner of the R&D center and all companies is the Canadian Entity which carries out the administration also. Things evolve so rapidly that local presence at various points of the planet is vital."

"But is it not reasonable that someone might ask where would your assembly line be?” I insisted.

"You should not look at us as an entity that would build Hyperion reactors. Defkalion’s prime role is research and development.Our technology has been tested by 12 different companies so far, out of which ten are part of the top companies in the world. Each one of these companies – like some of the1300 other ones, from 78 countries, that we are dealing – would be buying the rights of developing reactors for specific sectors and specific markets/countries. Defkalion will only develop reactors in Greece, in Xanthi, Greece, to be more specific, and for two sectors only: one would be for marine propulsion, heating and refrigeration (with 50% investor participation) and the second in providing energy for desalination factories (from a non-profit subsidiary of Defkalion). This second area is part of our humanitarian commitment to our planet, in the sense that we would not only provide cheap water solutions to our islands but also to poor countries on the planet that face severe water problems, as in Africa etc.”

I smiled as I was multiplying in my mind 1300 companies times the $40 million dollars that is rumored the average cost to buy rights from Defkalion... But how real is all that? I pressed him for company names and proofs. He refused, saying that he is bound by confidentiality agreements that were requested and signed with businesses that already purchased rights.

Our meeting continued with a kind of “arm wrestling” match of information: I kept of bringing up company names that rumor had it they bought the rights already and him politely refusing to verify. So I cannot tell you who has already invested in Defkalion’s Cold-Fusion technology, but I can surely bet that: before it comes to the point that you will be able to buy a small cold fusion “engine” for your house, certain car, motorcycle, stove, train and airplane makers/manufacturers would be already using them on their models. Even huge IT companies energy hungry “farms” of servers….Maybe even Space Vehicle/Rocket manufacturers.

"And all this even before you formally introduced some non-experimental model of the Hyperion,,,», I commented. ”And then? What will your next step be? ".

"Our next step has already begun. Scientifically, it is the vast improvement of the engine, with the exploitation of the unique spectrometer that is manufactured for us by Fasmatech, right here in Greece. Business wise is our listing at the Toronto Stock Market. We are working on our paperwork and we believe that we would be able to negotiate after October 15th, 2013. Starting November 1st, we will hold a Road Show from city to city to promote our share. "

"Listing in the Stock Market means that by October you will reveal your secret partners?"

"Yes, of course."

"And you will not have been acquired until then, by anyone? Rumor has it that there has been close business flirting by a female representative of China ... ".

"At times we’ve had many “flirts” from many countries. I could easily say from every continent. "

"Are there any of the big countries that haven’t shown any interest so far?".

"Yes. Russia ".

A recently published report related to cold fusion developments from Ukraine came to my mind.
“Maybe because they have their own solution in their hat "I added.
For a moment he seemed to be counting the possibilities. I thought of grabbing the opportunity to surprise him.

"How about the check with seven zeros that was given to you by a consortium of Spanish bankers, businessmen and politicians so they can acquire a 21% share of Defkalion? Wasn’t this the beginning to sell even more pieces of the pie? '.

He laughed. "I don`t know what you are talking about, but if someone is willing to add another zero to the number you said...maybe, "he replied.

P.S: While the rest will be waiting for October, all the scientifically sceptical take a look at Professor Yeong E. Kim’s theory that explains Defkalion’s cold fusion technology:

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/people/fa ... _BECNF.pdf

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

Kim explained to the conference that Hyperion (Defkalion’s reactor) contains a core of metallic nickel foam that is heated from 180 ° C to 849 ° C, with a plasma arch. After that, you observe a sharp increase of the magnetic field within the reactor between 0.6 to 1,6 Tesla.



I was under the impression no one has seen the increase in magnetic field and this is just an guess at what happens
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

TallDave
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by TallDave »

KitemanSA wrote:My understanding is that his new partners have basically told him to shut up.
Sounds familiar... :)
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

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