10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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ScottL
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ScottL »

Axil wrote:The presenter said near the beginning of today's demo that the power output calculations were not based on the enthalpy of steam although steam is present.

He said it was their "gift to the skeptics".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... phase.html


Image

That 539 calories per gram of water vaporized to steam is what that gift to the skeptics amounted to.
This is not a gift at all, it's just really ambiguous (input temp started at 25C not ice). I still believe this calculation was done incorrect and if I'm right we would have to divide the output by 2.0~2.2 which would drop the output to near or below input. That is my opinion currently, but I'll be thinking on it further. As always, the demonstration leaves the observer with more questions than answers. Sadly, until their reactor can easily be reproduced given instructions by an independent 3rd party, we may never know.

Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

Joseph Chikva wrote: So, certain Mr. Lewan checked water exits reactor at 142 C (!!!!)and is already promoting license sale at 40.5 M$?
What power device produces 5.5KW or 27kW?
Just so--did anyone actually measure the temperature of the water going down the drain?

Where, exactly in the water stream was the thermocouple placed? It could not have been in the water itself, as the water system is not pressurized. Could we have a hot pocket of steam or air?

One never wants to do calorimetry at temperatures near a phase change. Far better to increase the flow rate and lower the temperature rahter than simply dismiss steam as "not important".

Why argon in the dummy? Argon has 1/10 the thermal conductivity of hydrogen. Why not simply remove the nickel charge in the dummy and continue to use hydrogen?

This demonstration raises more questions than it answers.

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

Asterix wrote:Far better to increase the flow rate and lower the temperature rahter than simply dismiss steam as "not important".
May be they do not know that? Or that is too expensive to use another pump with in 2-3 times bigger flow? :)

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

Why argon in the dummy? Argon has 1/10 the thermal conductivity of hydrogen. Why not simply remove the nickel charge in the dummy and continue to use hydrogen?
Because that was a black box demo and the nickel powder is inside the black box.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Asterix wrote:Where, exactly in the water stream was the thermocouple placed? It could not have been in the water itself, as the water system is not pressurized. Could we have a hot pocket of steam or air?

One never wants to do calorimetry at temperatures near a phase change. Far better to increase the flow rate and lower the temperature rahter than simply dismiss steam as "not important".
That is the key question. How do they explain 142C. Without pressure.

I watched some of the Q&A and I was hoping the presenter was going to address this. But it appears that he only answered about three questions submitted via ICCF and nothing from the running chat that Axil pointed us to. There were questions scrolling by the entire time about the output temp and the steam quality but he did not apparently see these.

Subjectively, the Defkalion guy did not seem like a scam artist to me. He wasn't real slick and came across as earnest. But that is just an emotional perception of mine and doesn't mean much.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Comments from Mats Lewan, who was in the room and had freedom to test what he liked. Worth reading. A couple of points he made I will paste below.
http://matslew.wordpress.com/2013/07/24 ... -in-milan/
- an issue was detected as Lab View showed an input electric energy to the high voltage generator of between 200 and 300 watts, whereas I measured an input electric energy to the HV generator of between 1,0 and 1,3 kW. We never found out what this issue depended on.

- in the active run with hydrogen the output thermal power reached about 5,5 kW whereas the total input power was about 2,7 kW, taking into account the higher value of the power fed into the HV generator.
and
- no consideration was taken to vaporization enthalpy. Yet the temperature at the output reached over 160 degrees Celsius with and open ended output tube, thus basically at atmospheric pressure. The output was led down into a sink. Initially water was pouring down, but at high temperatures there was no water dropping at all. If all the water was vaporized, the output thermal power would have been above 27 kW.

seedload
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by seedload »

bhl wrote:Some tidbits that came out from today's demo:

All Nickel isotopes except 61 react...
Did they say what 'react' means to them? Previously with Rossi, 'react' meant that Nickel gains a proton to become copper, ie NI62 becomes CU63, etc. But if the most abundant isotope of nickel, NI58, is 'reacting' in this way, then NI58 would be transmuting to CU59 which will quickly decay to NI59 which is radioactive with a half life of 76000 years. Are they claiming to be making radioactive products with a half-life of 76K years?

At least Rossi had the good sense to change his story to claim that only the two isotopes of Nickel (NI62,NI64) that would conveniently produce stable copper are the ones to 'react'.

EDIT - Noticed that Dr. Yeong Kim is going to present at ICCF-18 tomorrow at 9:20 on his paper "Theoretical Analysis and Reaction Mechanismsfor Experimental Results of
Hydrogen-Nickel Systems". He is working with Defkalion on the theoretical basis for their claims. Here is the abstract for the paper he will discuss - http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/fil ... anisms.pdf. He wrote this previously on Rossi like systems. http://www.physics.purdue.edu/people/fa ... drogen.pdf.

Of note is that he says that only even isotopes will react in these kind of systems and he claims that 58 won't react as readily as 62,64. However, he does point to potential side reactions that will cause other issues, like lithium transmutations, etc.. I guess it is good that at least one actor in this saga is discussing theory in relation to their device.

Also, I read somewhere that "Defkalion stated that the reactor packs huge magnetic fields capable of
disrupting all electronic equipment in the general vicinity of the reactor
core. The core had to be shielded by a double ply faraday cage. That huge field
is produced by nano-particles in a bath of infrared radiation."

Did they really say such a thing? And, if so, why haven't we heard similar stuff about Rossi's reactor?
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

The Defkalion device utilizes modified spark plugs in the reactor core, IIRC. I'd expect that may be the source of a lot of EM emissions/noise. Which is probably why the faraday cage is used. I don't know who mentioned magnetic fields, but I suspect that may be a mistake.

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

JoeP wrote:I don't know who mentioned magnetic fields, but I suspect that may be a mistake.
Mistake is to assume something on base of primitive scammers’ statements. Now we see Dekfalion too. Not assuming but now we can say with confident - very similar shit to Rossi.
It appers they are selling license of process with unknown parameters at 40.5 M$.
May be that is less understood for person saying with aspiration "thermite" as for me Thermit is only one of many other discovered mixes of oxidizer with and fuel capable burning vigorously at some conditions.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

First off, we don't know the source of the "magnetic fields" statement. Might not have been a Defkalion person.

Second, you ignore my use of "probably," and I "suspect" in the post you are responding to. There is no assumption, mere speculation. This is a significant difference. You need to take your time when reading.

Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

JoeP wrote:First off, we don't know the source of the "magnetic fields" statement. Might not have been a Defkalion person.

Second, you ignore my use of "probably," and I "suspect" in the post you are responding to. There is no assumption, mere speculation. This is a significant difference. You need to take your time when reading.
I think it may have been Hajichristos who made the "magnetic" observation. This may have been nothing more than a misconstruing of "EMI", electromagnetic interference.

In any case, this was a demonstration, not a test--and that's an important distinction.

Uri Geller demonstrated mental spoon-bending many times--until James Randi exposed his game for what it was. TV evangelistic "faith healers" demonstrate all of the time, but it's a game to get followers and most importantly, contributions. A magician demonstrates that he can make an elephant disappear. All demonstrations and not tests.

The point is a test starts out with the view that "everything that anyone says or does is a lie". If someone says "don't touch that, you'll get burned", you pull out a thermometer and measure whatever it is to see if it is truly hot. If another person says, "it weighs 500 grams", you get your own scale and weigh the thing. You push, prod, measure and then measure some more. If someone who has an interest in the outcome hands you a ruler to perform a measurement, you measure that ruler against a known one of your own.

In other words, you avoid any attempt to influence you and you let the facts speak for themselves. This has nothing to do with belief or skepticism, just cold hard data. If you obtain data that appear to contradict conventional expectations, you get more data. From the data, you work to obtain information and from the information, you draw a conclusion.

So this DGT thing, as well as Rossi's previous demonstrations were not tests. A real test would have no DGT or Leonardo personnel present in any control capacity, except as a safety monitor, as in "please don't handle the plutonium with your bare hands--it will poison you and you will die".

Let the data speak for themselves. Forget what the actors say or do. Go see a magic show if you want to be dazzled.

Kahuna
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Location: CA

Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

I would agree with your demo/test definition and that the recent DGT was clearly a demo (I don't think they even claimed anything else). However, the last examination of the Rossi hot-Cat comes much closer to being a "test" than you intimate IMO. It did happen on Rossi's premises (extensively for IP protection), however the test team was given almost total autonomy and supplied their own instrumentation and protocols. Some potential issues with the testing have been identified (very unlikely indicators of a scam IMO) which the test team plans to address in the next round of "tests" to begin shortly.

Just thought it was worth drawing the distinction.
Asterix wrote:
JoeP wrote:First off, we don't know the source of the "magnetic fields" statement. Might not have been a Defkalion person.

Second, you ignore my use of "probably," and I "suspect" in the post you are responding to. There is no assumption, mere speculation. This is a significant difference. You need to take your time when reading.
I think it may have been Hajichristos who made the "magnetic" observation. This may have been nothing more than a misconstruing of "EMI", electromagnetic interference.

In any case, this was a demonstration, not a test--and that's an important distinction.

Uri Geller demonstrated mental spoon-bending many times--until James Randi exposed his game for what it was. TV evangelistic "faith healers" demonstrate all of the time, but it's a game to get followers and most importantly, contributions. A magician demonstrates that he can make an elephant disappear. All demonstrations and not tests.

The point is a test starts out with the view that "everything that anyone says or does is a lie". If someone says "don't touch that, you'll get burned", you pull out a thermometer and measure whatever it is to see if it is truly hot. If another person says, "it weighs 500 grams", you get your own scale and weigh the thing. You push, prod, measure and then measure some more. If someone who has an interest in the outcome hands you a ruler to perform a measurement, you measure that ruler against a known one of your own.

In other words, you avoid any attempt to influence you and you let the facts speak for themselves. This has nothing to do with belief or skepticism, just cold hard data. If you obtain data that appear to contradict conventional expectations, you get more data. From the data, you work to obtain information and from the information, you draw a conclusion.

So this DGT thing, as well as Rossi's previous demonstrations were not tests. A real test would have no DGT or Leonardo personnel present in any control capacity, except as a safety monitor, as in "please don't handle the plutonium with your bare hands--it will poison you and you will die".

Let the data speak for themselves. Forget what the actors say or do. Go see a magic show if you want to be dazzled.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

A significant difficulty for manned missions outside of the Earth's magnetosphere, including Mars missions, asteroid exploration, and space-based mining and manufacturing, is the hazard of crew exposure to particulate radiation. With the recent resurgence of interest in manned Mars missions, crew radiation shielding has again become an active problem for investigation


One solution to the problem of shielding crew from particulate radiation in space is to use active electromagnetic shielding. Practical types of shield include the magnetic shield, in which a strong magnetic field diverts charged particles from the crew region, and the magnetic/electrostatic plasma shield, in which an electrostatic field shields the crew from positively charged particles, while a magnetic field confines electrons from the space plasma to provide charge neutrality. Advances in technology might include high temperature LENR based superconductivity in Bose Einstein condensation.


Since the dangerous particles involved are charged, an alternative solution to the problem of shielding is the use of active electromagnetic shields. The simplest such device is the magnetic dipole shield. The magnetic field of the Earth is a good example of a magnetic shield, and is responsible for the relatively benign radiation environment on Earth. A magnetic shield makes use of the fact that a charge particle's trajectory in a magnetic field is curved. As a particle enters the region of high magnetic field, its trajectory will curve away from the region to be protected. In essence, the principle is exactly the reverse of that involved in a magnetic bottle; in this case the intent is to trap the particles outside the region of interest, instead of inside. The advantages of a magnetic shield to crew safety and health are obvious.


A crew bound for Mars could be placed inside a hollow ellipsoid LENR Ni/H reaction chamber that provides propulsion for the Mars craft. The LENR reaction will divert the positive particle radiation and neutralize it in strong electrostatic electron concentrations.


LENR could open the door to radiation safe space transportation and habitation in a hazardous radiation environment.

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

seedload
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by seedload »

FYI, from http://coldfusionnow.org/iccf-18-day-5- ... nd-awards/
Theoretical Analysis and Reaction Mechanisms for Experimental Results of Hydrogen-Nickel Systems presented by Yeong Kim was anticipated because of his recent collaboration with Defkalion Green Technologies, who beamed in a video of their demonstration of the R-5 reactor in Milan on Tuesday.

The Hyperion reactor contains a core of nickel metal foam. Heating the system to 180 C – 849 C, the Hyperion is then triggered, after which the magnetic field rose 0.6 to 1.6 Tesla.

Kim says, “This indicates that LENRs are producing very strong electric fields E, currents I, and magnetic fields B.”

Kim reported Defkalion tests produced excess heat only with the even isotopes of Ni (58, 60, 62, and 64), whereas odd isotopes do not produce excess heat (61).

No gammas outside of 50 keV to 300 keV were detected from the Hyperion.

Graphs were shown of an excess heat run, and a control run, where the data showed the power can be cut-off at will, revealing the ability to control the reaction.

Kim then began to describe his theoretical explanation of the data. He speculated that in the Fleischmann-Pons Effect (FPE), two deuterons making a Helium-4 require a symmetric release of energy, to conserve total momentum.

For two-particles exiting the reaction, his model shows lower probability.

“The problem is solved”, says Kim, and he is willing to talk to other theorists to help convince them.

He then described Boson Cluster-State Nuclear Fusion (BCSNF) generalized to include Hydrogen-Metal Systems. While there are still some unknowns, namely the S-factor representing the nuclear force strength, and the probability of the Boson Cluster State (BCS), the predicted reaction rates can be compared with the experimental reaction rates.

Kim speculated that the magnetic fields generated by the triggering could provide magnetic alignments of Nickel atoms, and these could provide localized magnetic trap (LMT) potentials for Boson clusters on the surface of Ni powders, though these traps have short lifetimes.

It is Rydberg atoms that then form the BEC cluster state.

“H and Ni powders triggered by glow discharge created a magnetic field causing Rydberg states allowing nano-scale localized magnetic traps, allowing Hydrogen Boson Cluster States in the LMT on the Ni surfaces. Fusion between these elements create excess heat and locally produced glow discharges.”

Kim writes, “Transmutation reactions involving Ni isotopes may not be dominant reaction mechanism but could be part of much weaker secondary reaction.”

Kim believes that self-sustaining reactions could be improved by increasing the deuterium density, and this will be tested with Hyperion R-6 reactor with the on-line real-time mass spectrometer at Defkalion Lab.

1% of Defkalion revenue will be spent on basic scientific research. Moving forward, Defkalion will be cooperating with National Instruments, as well.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

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