10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

Axil wrote:Under the principle of caveat emptor, the buyer could not recover damages from the seller for defects on the property that rendered the property unfit for ordinary purposes. The only exception was if the seller actively concealed latent defects or otherwise made material misrepresentations amounting to fraud.

Before statutory law, the buyer had no express warranty ensuring the quality of goods. Common law requires that goods must be "fit for the particular purpose" and of "merchantable quality", but this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are responsible for the value that is rendered in a product or service.
Except that businesses that didn't treat their customers well often found themselves run out of town or were otherwise treated badly themselves.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

Some thoughts on faith...

http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-c ... 097874.pdf

SANDIA REPORT

SAND2009-7874

Unlimited Release

Printed November 2009

LDRD 140639 Final Report:

Investigation of Transmutation Claims

Curtis D. Mowry, J. Pace Van Devender, Jeffrey E. Reich, Richard P. Grant, and James A. Ohlhausen


CONCLUSIONS
The Proton-21 Laboratory in the Ukraine has been publishing results on shock-induced transmutation of several elements, including Cobalt 60 into non-radioactive elements. We have developed and exercised a process to detect possible shock-wave-induced transmutation products and to unambiguously validate or invalidate the claims in collaboration with the Proton-21 Laboratory. We found elevated and localized concentrations of impurity elements like the Ukrainian’s report in our sample, but all our results are consistent with the ejection of impurities that were not in solution in our alloy, were deposited from the cathode during irradiation, or could be from surface contamination although the surface contamination cannot be validated. We are positioned to test samples from Proton-21 if funded to do so.

If we do proceed with testing the Proton-21 samples, the control of starting sample and hardware is critical. Multiple methods are necessary to provide complimentary sampling volumes, different trade-offs for cost and detection limits, and different mapping and quantification abilities. Multi-disciplinary inputs will be needed in the fields of metallurgy, chemistry, and physics. Step-wise analysis is useful as shown in this work; additional techniques were available but not needed. Initial measurements provide guidance for more sophisticated and expensive measurements.
-----------------------------------------


This is how professional scientist respond to solid evidence of LENR reactions. They just don't believe it. To them, it can't be true, it must be contamination from somewhere but they just can't find out where these strange transmutation products are coming from.

They say send us more money and we will do more and better testing that we still can't believe in.

I am coming to the opinion that science is very much like a religion where faith is require to look at unexplained an anomalous evidence.

This is why a theory steeped in well established scientific principles must precede the presentation of experimental fact.

We must explain the facts before they are observed to make an impact on the constraints of the scientific belief system.

The greats in science will become curious and begin the journey to truth. But for the mediocre majority, no belief is possible.

Fully expect that Science will reject the upcoming demonstrations both in content and process. These demos will be more impactful for those with less scientific preconceptions.

-----------------------------------------------------



Rossi has shown Defkalion Green Technologies that it was possible to build a functional and powerful Ni/H reactor. And that is all he did. This singular revelation inspired in them an instance of faith that miracles are possible as wrought by the enfeebled hands of man in contravention of all common sense and scientific beliefs.

Defkalion has revealed far more than they ever got from Rossi to help others along the path to similar faith. For have no doubt, faith both strong and certain is the indispensable gift that can drive the most common of men to great accomplishments.

What gives others the right to demand additional information? Do they require more evidence to bolster their faith like doubting Thomas, a skeptic who refused to believe without direct personal experience, to cover his fingers in the flowing blood as proof of the miracle that he so long denied was possible?

Faith is something that clashes easily with the common sense that currently permeates this world. Faith can be faith only, because it shows clearly about the worldview beyond this limited one we now live in. It inspires, and explains in crystal clarity a new paradigm of values, values that surpass and surmount the conventional. It is capable of presenting the Truth that cannot be found in this current strangled worldview. That is why this new birth of faith and the conventional scientific belief system we all suffer under are inevitably in conflict with each other.

Defkalion may well have surpassed Rossi in the unfathomable technology that they are fielding; are they different or are they the same; we just don’t know; but why give tight fisted Rossi something that he was not willing to share with others.

As the patent law stands now, I am sure there are minds as brilliant and inspired as those plying their trade at Defkalion in a world filled with brilliant minds. When all who are interested and inspired by steadfast faith are set to task, the time to new discovery will be short.


Who is actually responsible for the billions upon billions lost as a consequence of the folly of man as Defkalion holds their secrets closely? Clearly it’s not Defkalion, They only seek to abide by the intellectual property practices and rules currently set in place long ago and hope that these unfair rules are changed as rapidly as possible. Amend that infamous law and make it receptive to... and bestow recognition of... overunity technologies.

When inspired and motivated by the events beginning tomorrow, with the full force of the law as applied to most other inventions, allow Defkalion to file a patent that will permit others skilled in the art upon its detailed study and contemplation to readily duplicate what will have been demonstrated in the upcoming days and weeks. Until then the only value to be gained from these demos is faith that miracles can happen.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/p ... gIE110.pdf

A Visit to Defkalion Green Technologies

Jeane Manning
This article does not pretend to be a technical report on a visit to a new energy science laboratory. Instead, it’s a personal account intended to share the essence of what I heard there—glimpses of the thinking behind a company that could help change our world for the better. However, readers who are aware of nanoplasmonics—a new area of science dealing with the interaction of photons with matter including nuclei or sub-nuclear particles—will be interested to read how scientists at the Defkalion Green Technologies (DGT) lab now describe phenomena that they see happening in DGT’s excess-heat-producing Hyperion product. Instead of using the term low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR), DGT has been calling the process HENI—heat energy from nuclear interactions. A recent breakthrough resulted in a change; instead of the “N” standing for nuclear, it now stands for nanoplasmonics. I expect that this simpler interpretation of the phenomena could help with the public image of this field and its products. Could it also build alliances with other academic fields?

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

whoa Axil slow your roll,
The question that was posed was why was Rossi and Defkalion the same or not the same, I was merely pointing out that scams are often copied.
At first observation There does seem to be a world of difference between Rossi and Defkalion , Rossi is all about smoke and mirrors and extraordinary claims with extraordinaire results and the refusal to preform a logical evaluation based on those claims.(IMHO)
Defkalion has on the other hand at least believable claims and what seem to be a real effort to resolve any questions .
45 watts over six months monitored, no extraordinary claims that it will scale but hopes that it will. Their test show that when we turn it on we have extra power when we turn it off the extra power goes away. Something that seems logical to the casual observer. After all ,their six month test could easily be duplicated with 20 dollars of electricity. something they do not try to hide. Defkalion is far more beliveable than Rossi and his many secret customers and secret factories, Which I have not been able to find any evidence of. I believe there is lenr reaction i am just do not believe it can be a commercially exploited effect.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

Are you talking about device, producing power of which was measured with the help of thermal imager?
Yes.

Are you trying to argue with me over whether or not Rossi is full of shit?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

ladajo wrote:
Are you talking about device, producing power of which was measured with the help of thermal imager?
Yes.

Are you trying to argue with me over whether or not Rossi is full of shit?
No, I am only trying to explain that both his demos are arranged in such a manner that it is very easy to forge results.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
ladajo wrote:
Are you talking about device, producing power of which was measured with the help of thermal imager?
Yes.

Are you trying to argue with me over whether or not Rossi is full of shit?
No, I am only trying to explain that both his demos are arranged in such a manner that it is very easy to forge results.
I would not characterize a controlled thermite reaction, as you propose, as "very easy," if that happens to be the fuel in a Rossi scam. Sounds pretty risky actually. If the reactor blew up or melted through in that last test (remember, there was no cooling but air cooling), it would have put a quick end to his schemes.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

The ICCF agenda has been updated to include the Defkalion test protocol

http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/fil ... esults.pdf

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

JoeP wrote:I would not characterize a controlled thermite reaction, as you propose, as "very easy," if that happens to be the fuel in a Rossi scam. Sounds pretty risky actually. If the reactor blew up or melted through in that last test (remember, there was no cooling but air cooling), it would have put a quick end to his schemes.
This is only one of possible options of his composition.
Reactor is not air cooling but combination of air and radiant cooling.
You can control even thermite reaction if mix is not stechiometric - in case if under certain temperature (let's say 800 C deg) releising thermal power does not exceed losses through surface of vessel. In that case you can have a simple electric scheme for control: temperature sensor, resistive heater, microcontroller controlling the current in the heater maintaining temperature under that certain limit.
Recall that even "safe" natural gas as well as any other fuels can blow mixing up in certain ratios with an oxidizer.
See for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit
Flammability limits refer to the fact that mixtures of gaseous fuels and air will only burn if the fuel concentration lies within well defined limits.

The terms "flammability limits" and "explosive limits" are used interchangeably. Limits are determined experimentally. The standard reference work is that by Zabetakis using an apparatus developed by the US Bureau of Mines. Limits are normally expressed in terms of volume percentage at 25 °C and atmospheric pressure, but are functions of temperature and pressure.
So, reacting components ratio only matters. And if mix is under ignition temperature, in that case you can control the system. As pressure is less significant for solids.
It is really easy taking into account availability of rather cheap hardware today.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
JoeP wrote:I would not characterize a controlled thermite reaction, as you propose, as "very easy," if that happens to be the fuel in a Rossi scam. Sounds pretty risky actually. If the reactor blew up or melted through in that last test (remember, there was no cooling but air cooling), it would have put a quick end to his schemes.
This is only one of possible options of his composition.
Reactor is not air cooling but combination of air and radiant cooling.
You can control even thermite reaction if mix is not stechiometric - in case if under certain temperature (let's say 800 C deg) releising thermal power does not exceed losses through surface of vessel. In that case you can have a simple electric scheme for control: temperature sensor, resistive heater, microcontroller controlling the current in the heater maintaining temperature under that certain limit.
Recall that even "safe" natural gas as well as any other fuels can blow mixing up in certain ratios with an oxidizer.
See for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit
Flammability limits refer to the fact that mixtures of gaseous fuels and air will only burn if the fuel concentration lies within well defined limits.

The terms "flammability limits" and "explosive limits" are used interchangeably. Limits are determined experimentally. The standard reference work is that by Zabetakis using an apparatus developed by the US Bureau of Mines. Limits are normally expressed in terms of volume percentage at 25 °C and atmospheric pressure, but are functions of temperature and pressure.
So, reacting components ratio only matters. And if mix is under ignition temperature, in that case you can control the system. As pressure is less significant for solids.
It is really easy taking into account availability of rather cheap hardware today.
Yeah, well again you state is is easy and cheap to do. I'd suggest you do a demo for us here if I wasn't concerned you could end up blinded when your container explodes and sprays white hot metal all over the place.

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

JoeP wrote:Yeah, well again you state is is easy and cheap to do. I'd suggest you do a demo for us here if I wasn't concerned you could end up blinded when your container explodes and sprays white hot metal all over the place.
I am not obliged to do anything for you or for any others.
But can explain you that termite does not produce any gas when reaction undergoes.
"Explosion" of container can occur as result of melting. And melting point may or may not be reached depending on power released via reaction, power loosed via radiant losses and convection (air cooling) and heat capacity of container.
Please inform does solid rocket motor explode any time if there together with aluminum powder is used much stronger oxidizer much stronger oxidizer is used.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
JoeP wrote:Yeah, well again you state is is easy and cheap to do. I'd suggest you do a demo for us here if I wasn't concerned you could end up blinded when your container explodes and sprays white hot metal all over the place.
I am not obliged to do anything for you or for any others.
But can explain you that termite does not produce any gas when reaction undergoes.
"Explosion" of container can occur as result of melting. And melting point may or may not be reached depending on power released via reaction, power loosed via radiant losses and convection (air cooling) and heat capacity of container.
Please inform does solid rocket motor explode any time if there together with aluminum powder is used much stronger oxidizer much stronger oxidizer is used.
Despite the easiness and cheapness of building your proposed thermite-powered "E-Cat"? I am not convinced as to the the easiness, cheapness, and controllability of such a device. You made it sound like a piece of cake so I figured a quick demo would be nothing for you to slap together, if you cared to prove your point completely.

Yes, the reaction, on paper does not produce gas. However, have you bothered to consider impurities? Remember, we are talking about a sealed container with potential runaway reaction, meltdown, and tremendous heat. Most thermite reactions I have seen are generating a lot of smoke particles.

Rocket motor -- not sure what analogy you are trying to make. Solid rocket motors generate a lot of hot gas. If you sealed off the end of the motor, boom. What is your point?

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

As a reminder, this is the URL where today's demo (intended for the ICCF18 audience) will be broadcast live, in English:

http://new.livestream.com/triwu2/Defkalion-US

Defka​lion GT demo to be streamed live at 10:00 EDT.

That's 14:00 UTC / 16:00 CEST (local time),

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

which is like 2 minutes from now if the countdown timer is to be believed
Some tech details about the streaming

Some tech details Hello everybody, for your information, this streaming is broadcast from the "real" Defkalion labs with light equipment and crew. Yesterday (during the italian pre-cast) we had some problems with the internet bandwidth. We are not going to use any special connection (we had no time to arrange it) and in case the link drops it will be reestablished as soon as possible. Please be patient and consider that the event will be available after the broadcast also.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Joseph Chikva
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Joseph Chikva »

JoeP wrote:Despite the easiness and cheapness of building your proposed thermite-powered "E-Cat"? I am not convinced as to the the easiness, cheapness, and controllability of such a device. You made it sound like a piece of cake so I figured a quick demo would be nothing for you to slap together, if you cared to prove your point completely.

Yes, the reaction, on paper does not produce gas. However, have you bothered to consider impurities? Remember, we are talking about a sealed container with potential runaway reaction, meltdown, and tremendous heat. Most thermite reactions I have seen are generating a lot of smoke particles.

Rocket motor -- not sure what analogy you are trying to make. Solid rocket motors generate a lot of hot gas. If you sealed off the end of the motor, boom. What is your point?
Mr. JoeP, first of all I said that Ammonium Perchlorate used in modern rocket/missiles motors as oxidizer is much stronger oxidizer and much danger compound as such tham Iron Oxide. Yes, decompositing that produces a lot of gases. On orders of magnitude more than thermite produce.
As gases produced by thermite are the vapor of metals:
Its high boiling point (2519 °C) enables the reaction to reach very high temperatures, since several processes tend to limit the maximum temperature to just below the boiling point. Such a high boiling point is common among transition metals (e.g., iron and copper boil at 2887 °C and 2582 °C respectively), but is especially unusual among the highly reactive metals (cf. magnesium and sodium which boil at 1090 °C and 883 °C respectively).
So, I am stating that gases produced by composite rocket fuel make that much dangerous than thermite.
The mentioned temperatures (2887 °C and 2582 °C) are achievable only if we would use the stechiometric ratio of reacting components and will be much lower when ratio will differ stechiometric.
But nevertheless we know today how to make practically safe solid rocket motors.
You bother about meltdown able occuring via tremendous heat releise? Today we know how to avoid meltdown even in nuclear fission reactors.
I am repeating once again. The easiest way how to avoid meltdown in thermite reactor is to make ratio of reacting components nonstechiometric. As excess quantity of any reacting components above stechiometric ratio is that neutral balance absorption of heat allows you to reach reaction temperature below melting point. Thus making "reactor" safe and controlable.

And I assume that Rossi in both demos uses chemical reactions: in first "cold e-cat" - the formation of Nickel Hydride as claimed conditions there is typical for such a reaction.
And something like non-stechiometric thermit in his "hot e-cat".

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