10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Enginerd wrote: <snip>
Sometimes it is helpful to consider probability. What we call scientific knowledge today is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty. Some of them are most unsure; some of them are nearly sure; but none is absolutely certain. We all take chances, we all operate based on probability. Some things, when the probability is weighed in the balance, seem much less likely to be true. Rossi claims to have invented the greatest thing since the invention of fire. Fine. That would be cool. Wake me when he provides indisputable evidence for his claim. Till then, we are dealing with a religious belief, and I'm not interested.
Hard to disagree with this part of your post. What set some people off is when probabilities are dismissed and statements of fact are thrown around.

My POV is that if Rossi is proven to lie and contradict himself it does not necessarily follow (with the information publicly available) that his invention is a definite scam. Again we get into probabilities and attempt to predict the truth from behavior patterns. Is it likely that he is scamming -- it is easy to make a strong case for that, and every falsehood, obfuscation, and delays adds weight to that and makes the Rossi story far less interesting. Alternate explanations still exist. E.g. the guy is fooling himself; or, he has a limited and unexplained exothermic reaction; measurement errors. Even if the estimated probability for these alternate explanations are very low, it has not yet collapsed to zero. Once cannot make that leap without uncontroversial, hard evidence, of which we still lack. Thus one cannot factually say that his device = IS = fraudulent.

This is a pretty simple point and basic logic -- and what makes me amused with the energy that is put into attacking Kiteman's posts (and the inverse). Amazing there is such argument about a quibble.

As for the 50kg shielding, I personally am interested in that detail -- if only to fuel my own internal probability meter on Rossi's device.

chrismb
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by chrismb »

JoeP wrote:My POV is that if Rossi is proven to lie and contradict himself it does not necessarily follow (with the information publicly available) that his invention is a definite scam.
There are also scams where people don't have to lie. (e.g collateralised debt vehicles). Confusion-marketing helps though.

There are those that are not scams where people tell the truth.

There are those that are not scams where people don't tell the truth, but don't lie.

There are liars that tell the truth.

Legend has it that there are even politicians who tell the truth, at least as they see it.

This is pedantry gone totally bonkers. It went bonkers about 1,000 pages ago in a thread long-long ago in a galaxy far-far away.

Rossi is the emissary of the destruction of the human race. Anyone who utters him one syllable that is not squarely aimed at his discrediting is an enemy of the State, of the world, a traitor, a purveyor of suffering and carnage, a destroyer of worlds, of people, of families. The slightest hint of a word uttered in near silence, in the middle of a completely empty field in the middle of an empty landscape, that might be construed to support Rossi is, in itself, an abomination. It is abnormal, defective, the very though of one letter of a word in support of Rossi should be held to be an abominable crime against humanity. Pity the little children, for they have caused no ill. Why should they pay with their lives for Rossi's plan to destroy the human race?

Enginerd
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Enginerd »

chrismb wrote:There are also scams where people don't have to lie.
"Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it."
-George Costanza
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

ladajo wrote:You guys are falling into Kites trap. Don't waste your time. He will accept no evidence on this. His head is firmly, stubbornly buried in the sand. We have had the entire shielding discussion a couple times. Kite refuses to even accept the BRC guy's own words, and discounts them as hearsay. So in Kite's court, direct witness testimony is hearsay. He also ignores that fact that Rossi has said shielding, then no shielding. And many many other direct contradictions.

Do not waste your time. He is playing a game.
This is the conclusion of the chief cr@p slinger. He is unable to prove the conclusion he has jumped to, so it is my fault, not his. The fact is, the "proofs" he keeps trying to portray are just that, cr@p. And he is so covered with it he can't see it for what it is. Too bad. I really AM looking for solid evidence one way or another.

I would also note that chrismb has found more potentially contradictory evidence in one day than ladajo did in a month or so. It is not solid, but it is suggestive. That is two pieces of suggestive evidence I've run across, but one assumed no significant shielding. Does anyone know how to send a question to Rossi where he will answer it?
Last edited by KitemanSA on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

Enginerd wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Remember, I asked for examples of Rossi contradicting HIMSELF, not some other person SAYING he contradicted himself.
[-------------snip-------------]
At this point, "I don't know" is the only logical statement I can make, though I keep looking for hard evidence one way or the other and keep getting disappointed by the "evidence" presented... both ways.
Since we are dealing in the realm of belief based on hearsay with little to no evidence (i.e. religion), I see no reason to consider Rossi's claims any more valid than any other similar claims.
That is my point, there are a bunch of folks who "come to Jesus... BELIEVE" Rossi is a scam and a liar. They go out and find the flimsiest of apparent contradiction and latch onto it as holy writ; contradictions that they undoubtedly produce daily in their own lives. It truly is pitiful.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

Enginerd wrote: Rossi claims to be getting some large amount of excess power (the amount varies) from something called an ecat, that may or may not consume Hydrogen and Nickel powder, and may or may not emit radiation, and may or may not involve nuclear reactions. Thus far, nobody has been allowed to replicate his process, or independently test the device using a simple delta-t check on a flow of water (without no phase transition) over an extended time period. But that doesn't mean we can dismiss Rossi and the ecat. His story is consistent, so we are compelled to either believe or withhold all judgement. Right?
Absurd. There are times when I believe you cannot read.

You are not compelled to do anything, at least not by me. Except, if you want to CONVINCE me that you know the "truth" about Rossi, you are compelled to give me FACT, not innuendo. You are free to believe what you will about Rossi. And I am free to require that you provide valid arguments when you try to convince me you are correct. So far, you have failed as miserably in providing convincing argument as Rossi has. You and Rossi are alike in being unable to martial a convincing argument.

KitemanSA
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Re: Reality check

Post by KitemanSA »

krenshala wrote:Wiki lists Pb at 11.34 grams per cubic cm. So 50kg of Pb would be just under 4409.2 cm^3 in volume.
I just scaled off chrismb's numbers. If they were wrong, talk to him. (A little side calc shows about the same values so this seems to be a distinction without difference).

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:From the Essen Kullander report:
The central container seen in figure 3 has an estimated volume of 50 cm^3 and it contains 50g of nickel. The container has on its top, a pipe for the filling of hydrogen gas. During the running we used the rightmost one of the devices, figure 4, which is surrounded by a 2cm thick lead shield, as stated by Rossi, and wrapped with insulation, figure 5. We had free access to the heater electric supply, to the inlet water hose, to the outlet steam valve and water hose and to the hydrogen gas feed pipe. The total weight of the device was estimated to be around 4 kg.
Rossi has also managed to stick 50kg of lead into a device that weighs 4kg. Cool! Nothing inconsistent there, just some 'new physics' that is not disprovable.
Excellent, now find me where ROSSI says both 4 and 50 kg. At that point, there would be direct evidence of an APPARENT contradict. The next step would be to challenge him on the apparent contradiction and weigh the response.

303
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by 303 »

I love u guys but you don't half make things over-complicated. You can argue the toss over nuclear reactions all day, but when it comes to evaluating the probability of a certain Mr.Rossi being the lucky one who stumbled upon a hitherto unknown but potentially world-changing technology, some of you are failing basic intuition.

Since I know nothing about physics, all I can evaluate is the man, and frankly if Rossi does have something i'd be disappointed ( not withstanding that I am lower than amoeba to Rossi ); call me a traditionalist but I like my scientists to have a boring, solid history of academia, papers they have contributed to, maybe they even teach a class or two, whereas Rossi has at least two failed ventures, if not outright fraud/deception, no real academic history, not much in the way of papers, not much of anything

That wouldn't even matter if his explanations were coherent, consistent and plausible. Apparently he recently promoted to 'Chief Scientist' but so far his science has been kindergarten, the ecats look like literally about 30 quids worth of plumbing hardware and a roll of duct tape/tin foil , remember the ecat heating Rossi's office for a year? wouldn't been so hard to video that in operation surely, but like any true fantasist the lies keep on coming and get more and more outlandish , secret military customers, ecat factories, nuclear, no wait, non nuclear reactions, COP anywhere between 1 and 50 at some points in the last years

that's why I say to kiteman, ok u can be super pedantic about saying beyond reasonable doubt that ecat is fake/fraud and one definitely cannot say that with 100% certainty , but its ok to have an opinion and express it based upon all the evidence so far

seedload
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by seedload »

Just to be unambiguous in the light of Kite's obfuscation, I would like to go back in time to the sequence of events that led me to believe that Rossi was full of shit.

1) Rossi posts a 'paper' on his web site claiming that his device creates NI59, NI63, and CU64 through various reactions and transmutations - all radioactive.
2) In the same paper, he claims that the ash is independently analyzed and ZN64 is found. The Zinc is claimed to be the result of the decay of CU64. ie, it came from the radioactive decay of CU64 which has a half life of half a day.
3) In the same paper, Rossi says that there is no radiation in the ash. Huh? He just said that at least three radioactive elements are produced, with half lives of 1/2 day, 100 years, and 76000 years.
4) Rossi, in a comment on his blog, claims that greater than 30% of the Nickel in a charge of the device is converted to copper after 6 months.
5) Rossi, in a comment on his blog, states that only NI62 and NI64 'react' to form stable copper. Two problems. a) what happened to the claims in 1, 2, and 3 above? b) how does only 4% of naturally occuring isotopes of nickel (NI62 and NI64) transmute to more than 30% copper in the ash?
6) Rossi explains that he has developed a cheap method of isotopic enrichment of the Nickel to deplete NI58 thereby enriching NI62 and NI64 to the 30% necessary to get the 30% copper. This requires significant depletion to get the combination of NI62 and NI64 to a 30% level. A second huge technological advance is claimed.
7) Returning to the paper mentioned in 1 and 2 and the independent analysis in 3), the paper states that the ratio of CU63 to CU65 was 1 to 6. To get 6 parts in seven of CU65 in the 30% of nickel transmuted to copper, the ratio of NI64 had to have been increased to around 26% from less than one percent in the original sample. This represents not only a huge depletion of NI58 and NI60, but also a massive enhancement of NI64 relative to NI62.

That's a whole lot of 'something' for Kite to be claiming that I am basing my opinion on 'nothing'. And this ignores all of the obvious inconsistencies that have cropped up about factory production, customer deliveries, amount of shielding, explosive tests, self destruct mechanisms, etc.

Just wanted to be clear that there is a basis for my position and conclusion and it is not 'nothing'.

Thanks
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

seedload
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by seedload »

KitemanSA wrote:The next step would be to challenge him on the apparent contradiction and weigh the response.
Idiotic. For the last four pages you have been saying that weighting his responses is equal to 'nothing'. You can't one second argue that unless something is completely unambiguous it is worth 'nothing' and then say that we should 'weigh the response'. True gibberish.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

ScottL
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ScottL »

Kite's assumption that we can have an honest challenge of any contradiction with Rossi is absurd. We've done this before. I've specifically posted questions to his blog before for the benefit of this thread. If you point out a contradiction, he calls you a snake, so how does one make a conclusion if the man is unwilling to explain any seemingly contradictory statements? You can't according to Kite, so Kite will always have a way out in these discussions just as Rossi.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

KitemanSA wrote:
ladajo wrote:You guys are falling into Kites trap. Don't waste your time. He will accept no evidence on this. His head is firmly, stubbornly buried in the sand. We have had the entire shielding discussion a couple times. Kite refuses to even accept the BRC guy's own words, and discounts them as hearsay. So in Kite's court, direct witness testimony is hearsay. He also ignores that fact that Rossi has said shielding, then no shielding. And many many other direct contradictions.

Do not waste your time. He is playing a game.
This is the conclusion of the chief cr@p slinger. He is unable to prove the conclusion he has jumped to, so it is my fault, not his. The fact is, the "proofs" he keeps trying to portray are just that, cr@p. And he is so covered with it he can't see it for what it is. Too bad. I really AM looking for solid evidence one way or another.

I would also note that chrismb has found more potentially contradictory evidence in one day than ladajo did in a month or so. It is not solid, but it is suggestive. That is two pieces of suggestive evidence I've run across, but one assumed no significant shielding. Does anyone know how to send a question to Rossi where he will answer it?
There is nothing here recently discussed that I have not discussed before Kite. To include your sudden revellation about the shielding. You have dug a hole you can not climb out of. You have refused much evidence. This is your problem, not ours. You can have your opinion. But it does not make you right.
As I have said many times, I don't know about the Ecat, but I know two things for sure; Rossi has not proven shit and Rossi is full of shit. The thing I suspect strongly, as I have stated before many times, the Ecat is most likely a fraud.
You can choose all day long not to do your homework and also to not actually look at proof Rossi has lied. It just makes you look stupid.
Rossi has lied. Rossi is a liar.
"The Ecat is what it is."
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

Any radioactive decay can be greatly accelerated using nanoplasmonics.

In this experiment, the half-life of 232U in the laser field is reduced to 5 microseconds instead of 69 years.

Accelerated alpha-decay of 232U isotope achieved by exposure of its aqueous solution with gold nanoparticles to laser radiation

A.V. Simakin, G.A. Shafeev

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.6276%E2%80%8E

Link fixed

Think about Parity non conservation (PNC) in the nucleus.
Last edited by Axil on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:49 am, edited 4 times in total.

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

AXIL your link went fubar
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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