10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

I do not see anything in this current report tht would indicate any sort of "self-sustainment" like Rossi has claimed many times.
Even if I ignore the who, what and where of the report, I still see an overly complicated test that could fabricated or misrepresented a number of ways. I am also suspect to the fact that one unit test was run on 3 phase power, and the other on single phase power. There is no apparent true reason for this change. Especially when you consider that the single phase test was the 'higher power' "Hot Cat". This begs questions as well.

It is simple enough to give the unit (can & control box, and an escort if he is that paranoid) safety wired shut with seals, to a truly independant third party, at their own site, and run a single phase water heat test, where the unit is powered pre-start and post test by a fully monitored site power source. One where they watch for circulating currents, as well as simple loop back wiring trickery, either of which can play silly buggers with clamp on ammeters. Another thing clamp-ons don't like is shielded wires or twisted pair. Ther are many ways to distort or minimize the current induced magnetic field they are trying to monitor. An inline ammeter would be better. But even it would need to be the correct mechanism to be sensitive to both real and reactive. The best thing is multi-channel o-scopes and properly used Commerical Analyzers used together. But now you are treading into RossiSecretWaveform world. So what is he trying to hide one must now ask?

This stuff is fully plausible, and one of the things I used to do with it was use a water turbine generator to back feed the grid with reactive power to shift power factor from .8 to 1.2, this would cause the meter to run backwards. I was doing this on a 4160V feeder. Another feeder at the same facility was a 22.4KV. I did not have a Water Turbine on that line, but I did have all sorts of invertor and switched power supply units that back feed enormous amounts of reative distortion. To the point that we were smoking cutouts at the bunker up the road, because the safeties did not see the juice. For a while we purchased and supplied extra breakers so the town could replace them when they burnt up at our cost. Evntually I got around to installing a large tuned bank filter and filters on the larger equipment inputs for controlling the backfeed and get it under control. As I recall, when I finally got the right gear to monitor, it was running at about 60% distortion upstream. My point is, you can do this stuff by accident, or you can do it on purpose. And without the right knowhow, nor monitors used correctly, you will not see it going on.

The best magic tricks and lies are the ones done right in front of your eyes, and you are convinced by some means you are seeing something else. You are conditioned to want to believe.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

What would it take to make a believer out of me?
First I would monitor the power into the device (after the converter box) with an Oscope, a precision in line amp meter, and a handy dandy power monitor box that you can find in any decent workshop. Having them correctly hooked up so you can record everything.
Then I would take a big tank of water (1200 gallons) and have it heat that water from a set temperature (60 DEG?) to 210 degrees. Record the amount of time it takes to do that.
Do the math. If it shows any amount of surplus energy publish the results, congratulations. This entire experiment could be done for fewer than 5000 dollars USD.
Why all the above numbers? Just to make the math easy, water weight 10000 pounds 150 degree temperature rise. That gives us a BTU number. Then compare that to a electric water heater coil for energy usage. All know standards calculated by everyone and all you need is to be smarted than a fifth grader.. :lol:
Bam! We all apologize to certain people assuming it works, buy them dinner and grab our TSR-80 to figure out exactly how much extra energy is involved by computing out the variables ( that would only increase the effective COP) and then the only argument would be how good this really is at making energy we can use.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

ladajo, paperburn1,
I don't think he cares one flying fig whether he makes a believer out of you. You are both zeros in his equation. Indeed, it may be his desire to keep everyone like you feeling exactly as you do. No competition that way. I wonder if he reads your stuff and smiles.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

Keep polishing that turd Kite.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

KitemanSA wrote:ladajo, paperburn1,
I don't think he cares one flying fig whether he makes a believer out of you. You are both zeros in his equation. Indeed, it may be his desire to keep everyone like you feeling exactly as you do. No competition that way. I wonder if he reads your stuff and smiles.
On this your 100 percent right, he does not care what we post, it does not matter if he is a fake or the real deal just as long as he keeps selling those leases that can be divided again and again.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

paperburn1 wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:ladajo, paperburn1,
I don't think he cares one flying fig whether he makes a believer out of you. You are both zeros in his equation. Indeed, it may be his desire to keep everyone like you feeling exactly as you do. No competition that way. I wonder if he reads your stuff and smiles.
On this your 100 percent right, he does not care what we post, it does not matter if he is a fake or the real deal just as long as he keeps selling those leases that can be divided again and again.
Now ya got it. Trouble for folks who just MUST jump to SOME conclusion before all the data is in, that action would be true if his unit works or is a scam. No vindication there.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

Betruger wrote:Keep polishing that turd Kite.
Rather be polishing than swallowing.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

:lol: How...
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

Betruger wrote::lol: How...
Now brown cow???

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythb ... nimyth.htm :D :D :D :D :D
nothing implied but the idea was submitted
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Kahuna
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

Well said. I think we can eliminate any grand conspiracy between Rossi and the test team. I think that leaves 1) Rossi somehow duping the test team, 2) test team incompetence, and 3) Rossi having a reactor that generates anomalous heat.
JoeP wrote:Well, lets hope the 6 month test happens.

It is really the only test that will indicate commercial viability potential. Up to now, I still suspect that a chemical effect could be providing enough energy, combined with measurement error, that could be the cause of all this. Much like Blacklight Power getting successful testing at Rowan -- weren't these short term tests as well IIRC? Same story here quite likely.

As for the test team, I too would prefer a different group of scientists. However, who is going to do these tests for Rossi aside from people he already has some sort of working relationship with? Nevertheless, everyone on the test team has a real career in science and has a lot to lose by being scammed or at least fooled by Rossi. So it doesn't hold water that they are all on the inside of some idiotic fraud-scam that Rossi is delivering. So that test I think was at least an honest attempt at evaluation.

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

KitemanSA wrote:ladajo, paperburn1,
I don't think he cares one flying fig whether he makes a believer out of you. You are both zeros in his equation. Indeed, it may be his desire to keep everyone like you feeling exactly as you do. No competition that way. I wonder if he reads your stuff and smiles.
I know we read your stuff and smile! :lol:
I predict that the Swedish government will get involved and give him millions.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

Stubby wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:ladajo, paperburn1,
I don't think he cares one flying fig whether he makes a believer out of you. You are both zeros in his equation. Indeed, it may be his desire to keep everyone like you feeling exactly as you do. No competition that way. I wonder if he reads your stuff and smiles.
I know we read your stuff and smile! :lol:
I predict that the Swedish government will get involved and give him millions.
There is no need , he is doing a crowdfunding effort there right now (like kickstarter) and last time I checked he had 250000 euros pledged.
http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf
I guess WC Feilds was right.
,The E-Cat joint crowdfunding project of the Swiss and German E-Cat licensees looks quite promising. They could already gather pledges for over 210,000 Euros (the goal is 600,000 Euros):
http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf
Everybody investing more than 400 Euro becomes a co-owner of the E-Cat installation which will be done in Switzerland. The site will be made available to the owners and the profits from the E-Cat operation will be distributed to them.
edit to include data
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

The following was submitted as why Rossi was wrong , it follows what I was told growing up. So far as I know there has not been a LENR with energy produced in the amounts professed by Rossi. there are some major player looking into the field but as of today there is nothing remotely on the scale of Rossi's claims that can be substantiated. I my opinion toyota labs is the closest and there reaction are barely observable. We all know at the quantum level sometime strange things can happen
All the elements on the periodic table you saw on the wall in high school chemistry, other than hydrogen and some of the helium, and a tiny amount of lithium, were manufactured by fusion processes in stars. A majority of stars, referred to as main sequence stars such as the sun, are happily fusing hydrogen (H) to helium (He) and releasing huge amounts of energy. They do this for most of their lives. It takes 4 hydrogens to produce 1 helium. If you looked at the atomic masses on those chemistry classroom walls, you would see that a He is 0.7% less massive than 4xH. This missing mass, which is referred to as binding energy, is where the energy that powers the universe comes from via Einstein’s equation. The binding energy of atomic nuclei decreases from H to Fe and then increases from Fe (and one Ni isotope) to uranium and beyond.

The problem with Mr Rossi’s e-cat is that fusion only produces energy for elements up to iron (Fe). This is because the mass of elements from from H to Fe is less than the total mass of the lighter elements fused to synthesize them. When stars start producing iron in their cores, their life is over as there are no more energy producing fusion reactions that can take place.
So, you might ask, where do the other elements – cobalt and beyond – come from? The answer is, during the dramatic collapse that occurs when the core stops producing energy in the seconds after iron synthesis begins, the gravitational potential energy of the star is released causing the the internal temperature of the star to spike to hundreds of millions of kelvins and all the heavy elements are produced and then blown out into space in the supernova explosion that ends the stars life. Heavy element synthesis requires energy input! The heavier the element, the more rare it is. Of course heavy elements can produce energy by fission where the reaction products are lighter than the starting nucleus, which is how all nuclear energy on earth is currently produced.

Now to the question of how copper (Cu) is made in nature. it happens in supernova explosions and require a huge energy input. Cu has 29 protons and either 34 or 36 neutrons. It has an standard mass of 63.546 atomic mass units (amu). Nickel has 28 protons and 30, 32, 33, 34 or 36 neutrons with an standard mass of 58.6394 amu. Also, hydrogen has one proton and either 0, 1 or 2 neutrons and an standard mass of 1.00794 amu. So depending on the isotopes involved, Ni can be fused with 1 to 9 H to make Cu. If you do the calculations for the 9 possible fusion reactions to produce Cu from Ni and H, you come up 0.05 amu short. This small mass deficit is made up by the energy input to the reaction to make it run. To put this into perspective, the fusion reaction for 58.6394 grams of nickel plus 4.857g of H to get 63.546g of copper needs an extra 0.05g of energy. Using E=mc^2, the energy requirement is about 4.49 terajoules which is 250 megawatts of power input.

There is no energy output in making copper from nickel. That is of course unless Albert Einstein, , Richard Feynman and others are wrong and Rossi is right. When Einstein said Newton was wrong about gravity, he was courteous enough to publish a paper in 1905 pointing out the problems with Newtonian gravity and how General Relativity addressed them. Rossi is essentially declaring Quantum Theory and Special Relativity incorrect and has provided nothing to explain why. In a Rossi universe, everything would be uranium or heavier elements as the physical laws as we understand them would not apply.
I do not approve of intellectual dishonesty.

Submitted for your perusal
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

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