10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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Betruger
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How low can ya limbo

Post by Betruger »

Two wrongs make a right???


You really have to set the bar low for Rossi to get a pass.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

Axil
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Re: How low can ya limbo

Post by Axil »

Betruger wrote:Two wrongs make a right???


You really have to set the bar low for Rossi to get a pass.
What is ITER costing, what in the national ignition facility costing, what did the Iraq war cost and no BOMB was found, what will the next Iran war cost?

You should think about giving Rossi a pass.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

Nah. Wrong is wrong. F! Rossi. The only thing that gets a pass is a genuine LENR technology.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

My comment was meant to incredulously "credit" Rossi for his supposed high capability of deception skills and schemes; of which I find less and less likely as time goes by. Not give him a moral pass. More likely that there is some excess heat effect, temporary in duration, that makes Rossi and his associates in academia believe he has some kind of energy source.

As I pointed out earlier, a long duration test (lets try a month or more) by another 3rd party group would give me some cause to think he may have something there. I'm not holding my breath that we will ever see such a test.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

The most obvious thing to say is that this was hardly a true "independant" test.

It was a Rossi Fan Club visit to his "factory". Or was it a RDT&E Facility? Not sure, Rossi keeps changing his mind what to call it.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

stefanbanev
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by stefanbanev »

parallel wrote:TallDave,
I keep feeling like I have to ask myself: is it more likely he's a genius-level fraud or a very mediocre legitimate scientist/entrepeneur who just stumbled onto something extraordinary?
You are grossly underestimating him. Apart from discovering the basic mechanism in the first place, consider how far he has come. In about two years he has made and sold 1 MW plants, made the basic E-Cat controllable and reproducible. Developed a really high temperature version. Made a two stage version with a COP of about 20. Claims he is in a position to manufacture thousands of them per year. Why not believe that too, considering most thought LENR impossible. All without using taxpayer's money. As of today, DOE still does believe LENR is real. What hope do think he would have of getting a grant?

rcain,
Dream on. That test will not be replicated. Why should it be? To please the pathological skeptics? The next test, scheduled for the Summer, is for the same group(?) to run a Hot Cat for six months continuously.

I see no reason why Rossi should give up the proprietary secrets until they leak out. The patent situation doesn't allow him to do that and retain the rights.
I must agree with "underestimating" points, the stereotypes may be quite deceptive... after all, the accomplishments do matter not appearance...

Carl White
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Carl White »

Apparently someone is hopeful enough about the E-Cat to fund some testing of it in Sweden:
A report published earlier this year by ELFORSK showed that in 2012, 200,000 Swedish Krona (about 23,000 Euros) was budgeted for the study of the E-Cat, and in each of the following three years 2,000,000 Krona was budgeted for its study.

It appears ELFORSK is very intrigued with the results of the the testing, and it sounds like they are going to be looking into it further.
ELFORSK AB is apparently an energy R&D organization established by Swedish utilities and manufacturers.

Full article here:

http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/swedi ... at-report/

Kahuna
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

Here is a pretty good summary of the latest eCat (AKA HotCat) testing in WIRED by David Hambling:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/201 ... n-research

Folks are throwing lots of rocks at these tests, but they seem to be holding up much better than expected. A number of possible deceptions by Rossi have been proffered but most all seem highly unlikely. Likewise, a number of errors in setup and measurement have been postulated, but the conservative test assumptions and significant amount of anomalous heat measured seem to make these much less likely than in previous tests. In general I think this report is worth considering and should probably make us at least consider that Rossi has something worth a closer look.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

I have always agreed that Rossi's stuff needs a closer look. The problem is that Rossi continues to act as if he has some deceit he is hiding.
I would be MUCH happier with this current play if it had not been a Rossi Fan Club Team working at his facility doing overly complex testing. Which, strangely enough in the report they did not explain why they choose the test regime they did, as is usually done in tests of this nature...

It still begs the question why Rossi will not do a simple single phase water heating test. I still remain suspect on reactive power and circulating currents. The exsiting report lacks some testing protocol details that one would normally expect. To include specific measurement intrumentation and system schematics.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Kahuna
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

ladajo wrote:I have always agreed that Rossi's stuff needs a closer look. The problem is that Rossi continues to act as if he has some deceit he is hiding.
I would be MUCH happier with this current play if it had not been a Rossi Fan Club Team working at his facility doing overly complex testing. Which, strangely enough in the report they did not explain why they choose the test regime they did, as is usually done in tests of this nature...

It still begs the question why Rossi will not do a simple single phase water heating test. I still remain suspect on reactive power and circulating currents. The exsiting report lacks some testing protocol details that one would normally expect. To include specific measurement intrumentation and system schematics.
I agree. I would have felt better about this if Levi were not on the test team. Since the team is funded to conduct additional test starting this summer and running for 6 months, I'm hoping that they will address some of the legitimate criticisms of the first testing protocol.

Since the temps measured in the first tests are more than sufficient to run a turbine/generator, the acid IMO test would be to set that up in self-loop mode and have it run for an extended period. I know If properly observed, that would make a believer out of me.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

Well, lets hope the 6 month test happens.

It is really the only test that will indicate commercial viability potential. Up to now, I still suspect that a chemical effect could be providing enough energy, combined with measurement error, that could be the cause of all this. Much like Blacklight Power getting successful testing at Rowan -- weren't these short term tests as well IIRC? Same story here quite likely.

As for the test team, I too would prefer a different group of scientists. However, who is going to do these tests for Rossi aside from people he already has some sort of working relationship with? Nevertheless, everyone on the test team has a real career in science and has a lot to lose by being scammed or at least fooled by Rossi. So it doesn't hold water that they are all on the inside of some idiotic fraud-scam that Rossi is delivering. So that test I think was at least an honest attempt at evaluation.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

This has got to be the longest most protracted excuse for scientific constipation in a long while... What a complete joke: Here we are conceding that yet another inconclusive experiment on what could be a major energy tech development, is, all things considered, a positive development.

Yeah... Rossi gets a pass alright.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

So looking at the Not-So-Independant Testing Team's charts. It appears that "self-sustaining" is in doubt.
Why is it the heat ouput only goes up when the power is on, and then goes down when it is off? The peaks and valleys align nicely with the leading and trailing edges of the "heater" cycles. Hmmm. It appears that in plot 7. and 8 there is about a 25 second peak coast (temp reading lag) for each cycle. Recall that input power is read off the ammeters, and output power is read off the external thermals. The peak delays look like something that charged up during the on cycle, runs out, and then decays away. Interesting when you consider that the leading edge of the "on" cycle shows an almost instant transition to heating. Smells fishyish. Like a reserve cap or inductor charging up and then collapsing when primary power is removed. I have seen these exact curves when I used to work with Invertor Drives years ago. The reactive components charged during the normal duty on cycle, then would discharge following the trailing edge "off", still putting juice into the system. This is the same principle on how regenerative braking works. I used to heat some big resistors with electric motor winding's(big inductors really) fields collapsing. No power in required, all stored reactive power. Some really serious energy in the 100HP and up stuff I worked on.
Another point, if it was self sustaining, why would it exactly and consistently track the input power cycles?
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

:D How do you determine the latent heat of fusion of aluminum (or some other metal/alloy with the correct temp range)from its cooling cycle :D
Plus the extra energy obtained by using two phases of a three phase source and pawning it off as a single phase . That would be approx 140 percent more than shown on his meter set up. The stator would get hot but not blow if the genset was big enough..... somebody smarter than me will have to do the math and see if the numbers would work.
so the aluminum like ice has a high latent heat before melting so it could act like a battery to store the extra heat , if the power was jiggered so it would show less on the meter than was actually put out. A lot of ifs and maybes but with the current set up(no pun intended) it just might explain some of the the readings.
these are the musings of someone that has not enough sleep so be kind if i blew it...
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

ladajo: interesting speculation. And that brings to me a general thought: I can't think of any test that allows for even a metered external power supply that will completely satisfy the required skepticism. And Rossi has claimed that the e-Cat requires electrical input energy to internal resisters for stability and control.

A closed-loop system could be built and be black-box tested with a lot more assurance. To keep things simple, could thermoelectrical generators be used instead of a steam generator? But I think the efficiency sucks for them IIRC, so there might not be enough power that way.

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