10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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rcain
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by rcain »

parallel wrote:TallDave,
I keep feeling like I have to ask myself: is it more likely he's a genius-level fraud or a very mediocre legitimate scientist/entrepeneur who just stumbled onto something extraordinary?
You are grossly underestimating him. Apart from discovering the basic mechanism in the first place, consider how far he has come. In about two years he has made and sold 1 MW plants, made the basic E-Cat controllable and reproducible. Developed a really high temperature version. Made a two stage version with a COP of about 20. Claims he is in a position to manufacture thousands of them per year. Why not believe that too, considering most thought LENR impossible. All without using taxpayer's money. As of today, DOE still does believe LENR is real. What hope do think he would have of getting a grant?

rcain,
Dream on. That test will not be replicated. Why should it be? To please the pathological skeptics? The next test, scheduled for the Summer, is for the same group(?) to run a Hot Cat for six months continuously.

I see no reason why Rossi should give up the proprietary secrets until they leak out. The patent situation doesn't allow him to do that and retain the rights.
tend to agree with most of that (peversely).

Rossi is such a cunt.

Kahuna
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

From Mark Gibbs at Forbes

Finally! Independent Testing Of Rossi's E-Cat Cold Fusion Device: Maybe The World Will Change After All
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2 ... after-all/
While a few commentators have raised criticisms concerning how the measurements were made and sources of error others have argued that the energy produced is so significant even knocking off an order of magnitude on either axis still portrays a process with insanely valuable output.
This is not, of course, the last word or even one anywhere near the end of this story but unless this is one of the most elaborate hoaxes in scientific history it looks like the world may well be about to change. How quick will depend solely on Rossi.

Kahuna
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Kahuna »

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40 ... 80411.html

From Jed Rothwell @ Vortex
I just read this paper for the third time. This is a gem. These people
think and write like engineers rather than scientists. That is a complement
coming from me. They dot every i and cross every t. I can't think of a
single thing I wish they had checked but did not.

In ever instance, their assumptions are conservative. Where there is any
chance of mismeasuring something, they assume the lowest possible value for
output, and the highest value for input. They assume emissivity is 1 even
though it is obviously lower (and therefore output is higher). The add in
every possible source of input, whereas any factor that might increase
output but which cannot be measured exactly is ignored. For example, they
know that emissivity from the sides of the cylinder close to 90 degrees
away from the camera is undermeasured (because it is at an angle), but
rather than try to take that into account, they do the calculation as if
all surfaces are at 0 degrees, flat in front of the camera. In the first
set of tests they know that the support frame blocks the IR camera partly,
casting a shadow and reducing output, but they do not try to take than into
account.

Furthermore, this is a pure black box test, exactly what the skeptics and
others have been crying out for. They make no assumptions about the nature
of the reaction or the content of the cylinder. They make no adjustments
for it; the heat is measured the same way you would measure an electrically
heated cylinder or a cylinder with a gas flame inside it. It is hands-off
in the literal sense, with only the thermocouples touching the cell, and
the rest at a distance, including the clamp on ammeter which placed below
the power supply. You do not have to know anything about the reaction to be
sure these measurements are right. There is nothing Rossi could possibly do
to fool these instruments, which the authors brought with them. They left a
video camera on the instruments at all times to ensure there was no
hanky-panky. They wrote:

"The clamp ammeters were connected upstream from the control box to ensure
the trustworthiness of the measurements performed, and to produce a
nonfalsifiable document (the video recording) of the measurements
themselves."

They estimate the extent to which the heat exceeds the limits of chemistry
by both the mass of the cell and the volume of the cell. In the first test,
they use the entire weight of the inside cell as the starting point, rather
than just the powder, as if stainless steel might be the reactant. In the
second test they determine that the powder weighs ~0.3 g but they round
that up to 1 g.

They use Martin Fleischmann's favorite method of looking at the heat decay
curves when the power cycles off. Plot 5 clearly shows that the heat does
not decay according to Newton's law of cooling. There must be a heat
producing reaction in addition to the electric heater.

I like it!

- Jed

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Stubby »

That is such a frikked up methodology for a test or tests.
Why not break up into 2 groups and run 2 identical tests with identical setups or even 5 such tests each?

I don't see how it can be shown that anomalous heat exists outside the margin of error with these tests?
just bad science right there
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by KitemanSA »

My concern is that odd rack assembly. Did anyone place clamp ammeters around the legs of the rack? Could current have been conducted through the legs at high enough power to explain the data?

Asterix
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Asterix »

Why use radiometry and Stefan-Boltzmann to measure the power output? That seems to me to be a very round-about way of doing calorimetry and depends on a number of "guesstimated" factors.

The paper gives no clue as to why this was done.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

I took a light spin again, and the power thing is still bugging me. It looks like a candidate for reactive power heating. Funky secret waveforms adds to the suspicion. This thing begs for a harmonics check, as well as reactive monitoring. If his "heaters" have an inductive component, this would be easy for him to pull off. Someone needs to stick an o-scope on this thing to check for phasing. Maybe that is the answer, Rossi is playing silly-buggers with true and apparent power. KW or KVA? Hmm.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by ladajo »

Electrical measurements were performed by a PCE-830 Power and Harmonics Analyzer by PCE
Instruments with a nominal accuracy of 1%. This instrument continuously monitors on an LCD
display the values of instantaneous electrical power (active, reactive, and apparent) supplied to the
resistor coils, as well as energy consumption expressed in kWh.
Of these parameters, only the last one was of interest for the purposes of the test, which was
designed to evaluate the ratio of thermal energy produced by the E-Cat HT to electrical power
consumption for the number of hours subject to evaluation. The instrument was connected
directly to the E-Cat HT cables by means of three clamp ammeters, and three probes for voltage
measurement.
I am not sure what they are actually saying here. They had an analyzer, but if I read it correclty, do not appear to have used it to do so. It is not clear if they read apparent or real. The "as well as" is throwing me off. Curious they put the analyzer on the unit, but not a scope to view wave forms for phasing and shape. If Rossi was using secret waveforms as stated, then that means the standard RMS waveform correction is out, as that is optimized for sine waves. The analyzer should have been capable of flagging the secret waveform distortion, as well as providing a True RMS reading on power. It is not clear that they did that to me.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

Be careful I went down this road and got names called at me.
First it was a powder that made it happen ,now its the special wave form. This is starting to smell again.
And I have a question.
It seems Rossi is running all his tests with a Generator , is this true or a misconception on my part?
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

JoeP
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by JoeP »

C'mon, lets keep a realistic POV here. I have my doubts about Rossi being the devious scam artist that many people seem to think him capable of being. Induction, secret waveforms, resonant effects, secret power supplies via the rack assembly...etc.

If Rossi is guilty of all that scam technology then the guy deserves a lot of credit for fooling so many people for so long. And even though the 3rd party group are mostly people friendly to Rossi, I have a lot of doubt that they would so willingly throw away their reputation and stick their collective necks out for this guy (with no reward, either).

No, the simple answer is there is some unexplained phenomena, whether chemical, or LENR, is generating some level of "excess heat." Just like countless other LENR and CF experiments. The only thing that makes this different is the supposed COP level being much greater then most other experiments. That could still be measurement error. Or, there is the small chance that Rossi has stumbled across something. I won't put any hope in that last possibility until there is a test that runs for weeks, if not months, on end. Enough of these 24 or 120 hour tests.

pbelter
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by pbelter »

I see 3 options there

1. The scientists doing the test are complete idiots
2. There are in on the fraud
3. There is anomalous heat production in excess of any known chemical sources

Well, since I find options 1&2 having very little plausibility...

paperburn1
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by paperburn1 »

Your Right thats what it would take for me to believe , a long term test properly monitored by a truly neutral third party.
I think there is some "buggering" with the true and apparent power. That would produce results close to what we seem to have and would not show up in his test methods. Pictures of the rack rule out some secret power source in my mind. The photo in the report are sort of high res so you can get a good look at some of the screen shots.
a power monitor and scope could rule this out.
Without hands on site or proper testing we can not rule out anything. By the way I was reading that there is a crowd source funding drive going on in sweden to help finish this new device. They are halfway to the goal of 600,000 euros if you contribute you get a piece of the action of the plant when its constructed.
That may explain all the new data available.
I am not a nuclear physicist, but play one on the internet.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

another noteworthy post from Jed Rothwell for the doubters to think about as follows:

We all know that Rossi has some personal credibility problems. He has been involved in some dodgy business. As I have pointed out before you can say that about many important people such as Edison and Steve Jobs who got his start selling devices to steal from the telephone company. People are complicated and you should not have a one-dimensional view of their worth.

Lost in the middle of another large thread, Jones Beene listed some reasons why Rossi does have some personal credibility. Let me copy his entire message and then add some other reasons.



QUOTE

. . . AR sold his biofuel company EON for about one million Euro and could have retired comfortably to Miami on that income. This is a matter of public record.

Instead - he reinvests the proceeds of the EON sale into his project ! Does that sound like a scammer?

It is preposterous that anyone would claim that he does this sale of a profitable company – and then reinvestment the proceeds to perpetuate as scam, with which to obtain enough capital for “adequate living” when he already had that to begin with. Instead he has to go through the constant reminders of his past legal difficulties, in order to find a solution to one of societies greatest problems?

Get a life! These people like Krivit, etc -- who blindly suggest scam because they personally were not honored with a demo -- ought to at least do their homework first and read what is available in the public record before spouting crap about scam, since there is no plausible motive which would be worth the risk.

END QUOTE


Right! Here are some other reasons --

People who have worked with Rossi tell me that he works 10 to 14 hours a day. As Beene says, he could have retired comfortably but instead he spends hours a day doing difficult, painstaking and sometimes dangerous experiments in a crowded workshop.

People who know him tell me he is a genius at the workbench. He has the kind of intellect that expresses itself in prototype machinery, not abstract ideas. This in no way denigrates his abilities. Some people express ideas in words and formulas, others by making equipment. I think Edison mainly worked by building actual prototypes. You might also compare Rossi to a great artist such as Rodin.

Independent observers tell me that he really did make dozens of prototype devices for his 1 MW reactor, which he then modified and modified again. I think he scrapped a large number of them at one point, and started over from scratch. This must have cost a fortune.

This is not the profile of a scammer. If the equipment was fake, he could produce it quickly with minimal effort. He would not spend hundreds of thousands of dollars making prototype equipment which he then trashes. He would make one or two fake, stage-prop prototypes, and he would use them again and again. He would not spend thousands of dollars renting a large workshop, renting a gasoline powered 200 kW generator, or buying a shipping container. You can make a fake energy device much smaller than this, at a tiny fraction of this cost. Putting hundreds of devices inside a shipping container does not enhance your credibility with scientists and investors. On the contrary, most people find that odd.

A scammer would not invite important people from NASA to his lab and then do a demonstration that clearly fails to work. If he has the ability to put on a demonstration that fools people and fools instruments, why wouldn't he use that ability every time, for every audience? The people from NASA are experts, but no more capable than others who saw the equipment when it was working properly. There is no question that in other demonstrations the performance was quite different from the failed demonstration that day.


I cannot prove by logic and common sense that Rossi is not a faker. This sort of thing cannot be demonstrated with rigorous proof, the way an experiment or an equation can be. But everything I know about history, society, confidence men, and my experience with people like Rossi tell me that he is not faking. He does have a powerful reality distortion field. Some gifted people do, especially inventors and entrepreneurs such as Edison and Steve Jobs. I define this as someone who sees things in his imagination more clearly than he sees things in reality, and who has a strange charisma that sometimes causes other people share his visions. Such people are dangerous. They often cause disasters. But they also build things that most people think are impossible, such as the Brooklyn Bridge and the airplane.




Fleischmann and Pons were nothing like this, by the way. They were painfully conventional people, as Martin often said.

Betruger
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Betruger »

JoeP wrote:If Rossi is guilty of all that scam technology then the guy deserves a lot of credit for fooling so many people for so long.
He deserves credit for being a worldwide time and money wasting scum bag. Ok.
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

Axil
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Post by Axil »

Betruger wrote:
JoeP wrote:If Rossi is guilty of all that scam technology then the guy deserves a lot of credit for fooling so many people for so long.
He deserves credit for being a worldwide time and money wasting scum bag. Ok.
But it was not government time or money like most, NO all, nuclear energy projects.

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