10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

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KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:55 pm

Begins munch popcorn but play is absurd so discontinues wasting time.
seedload wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Show me the evidence.


Again, evidence and proof are two different things. Evidence is not the same as fact. You dismiss evidence unless it is 100% fact thereby demonstrating your ignorance of what actually constitutes evidence. You have been shown plenty of evidence and, while you can individually show that each bit of evidence you have been shown is not fact, you fail to understand that it is still evidence. And, for some inexplicable reason, you seem to think that you are demonstrating some artful intellectual victory each time you say "that isn't a fact". Again, we know it isn't a 'fact'. It is evidence. And the sheer volume of the evidence is completely convincing to anyone capable of deduction beyond understanding the meaning of the simple and unrelated word 'fact'.

"Banging Head Against Wall"
A play in one act by Seedload

Someone - "Hey, here is some more evidence that Rossi is lying".
You - "But it isn't fact"
Someone - "Yeah, I know, but it sure looks like he is lying".
You - "But he might not be for such and such a reason."
Someone - "Yeah, but there sure are a lot of examples of evidence of him lying and contradicting himself."
You - "Show me a fact that he lied."
Someone - "Well, I can list all the evidence for you again if you want."
You - "But there is a possibility that this one or that one can be explained this exotic way or that."
Someone - "Ummm, OK, but that seems unlikely. I mean, given how many examples there are, doesn't it seem pretty darn likely that he is lying."
You - "Unless it is a fact that he lied, it is still possible that he is telling the truth."
Someone - "Ummm, I guess, but it sure looks like he is lying. Heck, I can give you twenty more examples of really crazy contradictions."
You - "But are any of them facts?"
Someone - "No, but there sure is a ton of evidence"
You - "But are they facts?"
Someone - "No"
You - "So there is no proof. Show me the evidence"
Someone - "I did. I just gave you all these bold faced lies as evidence"
You - "But they aren't facts"
Someone - "But they are evidence"
You - "But they are not facts."
Someone - "I guess"
You - "So, I have shown that he may not be lying and he may still be on to something"
Someone - "But that isn't likely given all the evidence"
You - "Show me the evidence"
Someone - "WTF, are you an idiot?"
You - "Hey man, what's with the name calling."
Someone - "OMG!"
You - "I don't see why you start calling me names. I am just trying to teach you what a "fact" is. You obviously don't understand."
Someone - "Of course I know what a fact is."
You - "But you keep saying that it is a fact that Rossi is lying."
Someone - "No I don't"
You - "I don't understand why you keep saying that it is a fact that Rossi is a liar."
Someone - "I haven't"
You - "It is not a fact that he is lying and you should stop saying it."
Someone - "I am not"
You - "You haven't presented a single unambiguous fact that he is a liar."
Someone - "Jesus!"
You - "Again, you are out of line."
Someone - "Rossi is a liar. I have a lot of evidence that says so."
You - "There you go, claiming it is a fact that Rossi is a liar."
Someone - "I am just stating my opinion based on the evidence. He's a liar."
You - "It's a declaratory statement, therefore you are representing it as a fact."
Someone - "Again with the 'fact' thing. It's just what I believe based on evidence"
You - "Then you MUST use the qualifier "I believe" in your sentence."
Someone - "Whatever. Don't you ever have a normal conversation? It is pretty clear that I have all this evidence that he lies, so I have formed an opinion that he is lying, and I am stating that opinion. I never claimed I had perfect facts (which rarely exist) - just that there was a ton of convincing evidence, which I am happy to share, and that this evidence leads me to the conclusion that he is a liar."
You - "But no facts."
Someone - "Are you kidding me? Your impossible."
You - "There you go attacking me again."
Someone - "Jesus!"
You - "It is just clear that it needs to be explained to you what a 'fact' is."
Someone - "Holy crap."

[Pregnant pause as principles stare uncomfortably at each other for several long seconds]

Someone - "OK, OK, so... what do you think. Is he telling the truth?"
You - "Naw, probably not."
Someone - "F*ck me!"

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby KitemanSA » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:40 pm

After deleting extraneous crap...

ladajo wrote: (Crap deleted)... You know the Miami next to Broward County, in Florida. But of course, It may be the secret factory is in Dade County, which would make someone suggesting Broward County, "totally wrong".
Yup. So what is your point? The guy seemed to be fishing for added info which Rossi provided... not in Broward.
ladajo wrote: Unless of course that someone was saying in an official report of an interview on 29 February, 2012 Rossi stated that currently all production, distribution and use of these devices are overseas.
Sound like maybe he stopped making them in the US for a while, OR the second hand report miss heard what Rossi said and miss quoted him. Here-say is not evidence without independent corroborating evidence.
ladajo wrote: As a side note this interviewer also states that Rossi acknowledged that no nuclear reactions occur during the process and that only low energy photons in the energy range of 50-100KeV occur with in the device.
Again, here-say. Are you aware of the NRC definition of what a "reactor" is? It includes the requirement for sustained fission chain reactions. Are you sure what their definition of or interest sphere of "nuclear reactions" may be. Are you sure Rossi didn't say "no fission" and the FRB didn't record "no nuclear reactions"? That is the problem with hear-say. You don't get to hear what is actually said, only what one side SAYS is said.
ladajo wrote: Which begs the question of Rossi's repeated postings about photons/gammas being the heat source. That is a mighty poweful glow he has got going on there. 10KW to be exact according to Rossi.
Sure is, if its true.
ladajo wrote:
ScottL
December 31st, 2012 at 6:23 AM
Mr. Rossi, I’ve been in a never ending back and forth with individuals about your 1MW container. Many of those who argue say that the container for your first unit has the same dents and floor scrapings as the one shown in the recent swedish video. Is the original 1MW unit the same one in the video or is this a new unit with coincidentally similar markings? I’m sure you know how these internet arguments can go and I’d like to having something backing what I post in response to them. Thank you, ScottL

Andrea Rossi
December 31st, 2012 at 7:02 AM
Dear Scott L.:
As I said and wrote many times, the Container of the 1 MW plant is the same tested one year ago, since to the military Customer we delivered different ones. This one, seen also in the Swedish Television, has been used to make tests, modifications, improvements, certification. It has been a tremendous tool for R&D. Now it is destined to a Customer. It will be delivered on March, after further series of modifications we have in course now. Thanks to it now we can pass to a repetitive manufacturing line. After a glorious first life as a prototype for R&D, it is on his way to go to work in a centralized heating plant to supply heat: this will be his seconf life.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

And this is supposed to prove what? Anyone with a brain knows that plans change. What else is new?
ladajo wrote:
Andrea Rossi
June 24th, 2012 at 1:37 PM
Dear Italo R.:
Actually, I am in the USA, close to 20 reactors working above 600 Celsius. We must collect at least 20 000 hours of test. This is not sweating: this is vaporizing, as correctly the snakes say.
Soon (weeks) we will publish the report of the high temperature reactor validation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi
June 7th, 2012 at 5:05 PM
Dear Larry Jameson:
0- it is not true: I never said we take orders for 4 months delivery. We accepted pre-orders, with no money paid, that will be turned into orders only after we will be able to put the domestic E-Cats in the market. To do this we need a certification, whose timing does not depend on us.
1- Not yet, the certification process is in course
2- We manufacture in the USA the modules for America
3- Yes
4- About half million
Warm Regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi
May 19th, 2012 at 5:10 PM
Dear Franco:
We are working with good stability at 600 Celsius degrees. This, if confirmed by the next tests, clearly opens all the possible doors.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
p.s. Today, Saturday May 19th,right now, 6.10 p.m. in Miami, I am working at 600 Celsius with the new E-Cat


Andrea Rossi
May 13th, 2012 at 8:03 AM
Dear Pietro F.:
I have been authorized to give the following information.
The 1 MW plant has been delivered and is working in a military concern. It has been made in the USA, after the October test of the prototype made in Italy; such prototype will be delivered, with the modifications which we will complete based on what we learnt from the model at work, to a European Customer in July. I have not been allowed to give this information until now.
We are working very much and very hard to be as fast as possible. For the domestic E-Cats we have the necessity of the certification made. The industrial plants will get the necessary certification within weeks.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi

August 31st, 2011 at 3:01 AM

Dear Paolo:
We make in Italy R&D, the manufacturing is in the USA.
About the other question: Leibniz, the great phylosopher-mathematician of the eighteenth century, used to say that there is always the better possible world, considering the actual possibilities in the place under consideration…
Warm Regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi

July 17th, 2011 at 2:38 PM

Dear Maryyugo:
Why have I to? I do not understand why this issue has to be of your interest. Anyway: we have presently plants working in the USA and in other locations. What’s your problem about this?
Warm regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi

May 18th, 2011 at 3:22 AM

Dear Mr Vergassola:
Our E-Cats are manufactured in two factories in the USA.
What you have seen in the videos is our Italian laboratory.
Warm regards,
A.R.


Andrea Rossi

March 23rd, 2011 at 3:55 PM

Dear Mr Claudio Eterno:
The first plant of 1 MW will be installed in Athens, in October. We are manufacturing it in the USA. Also in the USA we are making tests with an extremely important Customer preparing a similar plant in the USA which will be, very likely, our second job.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


62 Quotes AGAIN

But let us also not forget that the Official Report of a State Official acting On Behalf of the NRC is not court admissible evidence. At least according to Kite. In Kite's opinion, that investigator is also not court admissible because he obviously did not care about his job.
Given your proven propensity for abusing my communications, I now understand your conviction that Rossi has lied about ECat. You have DECIDED, and nothing else may interfere with that decision.
ladajo wrote:

Rossi changed his story about where the 1MW was made after folks started asking him about the Container That Never Moves as seen in multiple videos and photos. The same container that he previously claimed was "Made in the USA". He then started saying it was for R&D only and had been built in Bologna.
Are you REALLY that dense? The history according to Rossi.
Makes much of first 1MW plant in US for shipment to Bologna where it will be completed destined for shipment to Defkalion.
Defkalion backs out.
Unit "sold" to military related customer (MRC) subject to demonstration.
Customer declines delivery of unit until changes made.
"Rossi" builds other unit for MRC.
Rossi uses Bologna unit for R&D on HotCat.
Recently planned to sell Bologna unit to a "Customer".

Really, what is so hard to understand about that? Is it true? I don't know. Is it false? YOU don't know.

ladajo
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby ladajo » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:45 pm

It is so nice to see you consistently substitute your reality for most everyone elses.

I am also happy to see you consistently dismiss the testimony of a first hand witness. I guess in your world nobody can ever be guilty of a crime because any witness or evidence is not sufficient. IT MUST BE FACT. But your high standards of FACT seem to be at odds with reality. It would seem that nothing exists in your world. It is all suspect because one can never truly have fact.

I guess we should put all judges and juries out to pasture. I mean seriously, what is the point? Who is any man to make a judgement based on his observations and considerations. Science is such a crock too. Who is man to try and define anything at all? It may all be imaginary, just like you.

Did the lesson about shit never sink in? Looks like shit, smells like shit, feels like shit, tastes like shit...in your argument methodology, one can never ever be certain it is really shit can they? They must always accept a measure of doubt. To the point of stupidity. What a waste of resources. What is so wrong with just accepting that it is shit and moving on? Does it matter so much? Seriously?

Its okay little boy, it isn't red, it is bright red. All is right in the world now.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

seedload
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby seedload » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:55 pm

ladajo wrote:It is so nice to see you consistently substitute your reality for most everyone elses.

I am also happy to see you consistently dismiss the testimony of a first hand witness. I guess in your world nobody can ever be guilty of a crime because any witness or evidence is not sufficient. IT MUST BE FACT. But your high standards of FACT seem to be at odds with reality. It would seem that nothing exists in your world. It is all suspect because one can never truly have fact.

I guess we should put all judges and juries out to pasture. I mean seriously, what is the point? Who is any man to make a judgement based on his observations and considerations. Science is such a crock too. Who is man to try and define anything at all? It may all be imaginary, just like you.

Did the lesson about shit never sink in? Looks like shit, smells like shit, feels like shit, tastes like shit...in your argument methodology, one can never ever be certain it is really shit can they? They must always accept a measure of doubt. To the point of stupidity. What a waste of resources. What is so wrong with just accepting that it is shit and moving on? Does it matter so much? Seriously?

Its okay little boy, it isn't red, it is bright red. All is right in the world now.


Even a fly knows its shit. It takes the sophistication of an enlightened human brain to deny the obvious.
Stick the thing in a tub of water! Sheesh!

DeltaV
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby DeltaV » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:39 pm

<Sees target of opportunity...>
<Rolls onto target track...>
<Lasing...>
<Good lock...>
<Weapon armed...>
<Dial-a-yield to "3"...>
<Starboard-aft bay open...>
<Good solution - "Rifle! Rifle!"...>
<Starboard-aft bay closed...>
<Emitters off...>
<Rolls back onto mission track...>


ladajo wrote:Did the lesson about shit never sink in? Looks like shit, smells like shit, feels like shit, tastes like shit...
Ah, Cheech and Chong fan...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7ZX6ngOSs
MSimon will like that. See? There is some common ground for you Navy pukes, I mean, nukes.

mvanwink5
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby mvanwink5 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:16 pm

Never argue with an arguer, you'll just get tired. Be satisfied that he blinked.
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby ladajo » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:34 am

Why yes, you are right. He did blink didn't he.
Hehe.

DeltaV,
Yes Simon and I share some common ground. But he was a skimmer. That means we will never see eye to eye...
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)

What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

Enginerd
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby Enginerd » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:02 pm

We interrupt the ongoing discussion of how great Rossi may or may
not be for a bit on the psychology of being open-minded vs closed-minded.
If nothing else, it might at least provide something new to argue about.

Who’s More Open-minded, You or Them?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
--Philip K. Dick

mvanwink5
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby mvanwink5 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:45 pm

Or this maybe more appropriate:
Con: Criminologists have observed that the victims of confidence tricksters are often willing—indeed, eager—to believe the story to which they fall victim. The more absurd, fantastic or fabulous the story, the more willing they are to believe it.
Near term, cheap, dark horse fusion hits the air waves, GF - TED, LM - Announcement. The race is on.

GIThruster
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby GIThruster » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:48 pm

Enginerd wrote:We interrupt the ongoing discussion of how great Rossi may or may
not be for a bit on the psychology of being open-minded vs closed-minded.
If nothing else, it might at least provide something new to argue about.


I bit down on that a year or so ago, looking at the consequences of good epistemology. If you want to be objective and scientific, as well as charitable and honest, then you know that these things are often determined by character.

Rossi's character is that he bought himself a phony sheepskin and deceived as many as possible as to his qualifications. Also isn't he a convicted fraudster in Italy? Remind me what was that all about?

While it's true in a court of law "innocent until proven guilty" the best predictor of the future is always the past. Rossi's past is that he's a charlatan, so he needs to earn our trust.

I'm not seeing it.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Enginerd
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby Enginerd » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:10 am

GIThruster wrote:Rossi's character is that he bought himself a phony sheepskin and deceived as many as possible as to his qualifications. Also isn't he a convicted fraudster in Italy? Remind me what was that all about?


I fully agree that the preponderance of evidence seems to point clearly toward Rossi being a fraud. I currently am more interested in the psychology of a true believer. Some folks believe in virgin births and global floods and talking snakes. Some folks believe the holocaust never happened. Some folks believe Joseph Smith really translated gold plates and god wanted him to have sex with dozens of women. Some believe in alien abductions. Some folks believed that mass suicide to reach the alien space craft following the Comet Hale–Bopp was a fine idea. There may or may not be an alien starbase on Pluto. The moon landing may or may not have been faked and filmed in a Hollywood studio. There may or may not be an invisible pink unicorn living in my garage. People believe all sorts of things without the smallest scrap of evidence. I enjoyed this book on the subject: Why People Believe Weird Things

Presently there is no more reason to believe Rossi than there is reason to believe there is an invisible pink unicorn living in my garage. That will remain my position until I am presented with credible evidence, including the much discussed well designed tests so often discussed here, and credible before and after mass spectrometry results demonstrating isotopic transmutation. The burden to show these things is on Rossi and his supporters. I find it fascinating to watch and talk with those who believe in these things despite the complete lack of compelling evidence. I find it fascinating to see how often those of us who are skeptical are told we are being closed minded. No, in fact I consider myself very open minded. I'll change my mind in a heartbeat -- when presented with credible evidence.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

--Philip K. Dick

KitemanSA
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby KitemanSA » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:43 am

Enginerd wrote:...
Presently there is no more reason to believe Rossi than there is reason to believe there is an invisible pink unicorn living in my garage.
Except he has had several purportedly credible witnesses and you, unless I have missed something, have not. True, not enough, but more than your PU. ;)

Stubby
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby Stubby » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:39 am

mvanwink5 wrote:Or this maybe more appropriate:
Con: Criminologists have observed that the victims of confidence tricksters are often willing—indeed, eager—to believe the story to which they fall victim. The more absurd, fantastic or fabulous the story, the more willing they are to believe it.


A view point a lot of atheists hold as well.

If anyone wants someone to believe them, show some evidence. Credible, falsifiable evidence.
Any scientist worthy of the name knows this.
Everything is bullshit unless proven otherwise. -A.C. Beddoe

Enginerd
Posts: 178
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby Enginerd » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:31 am

KitemanSA wrote:
Enginerd wrote:...
Presently there is no more reason to believe Rossi than there is reason to believe there is an invisible pink unicorn living in my garage.
Except he has had several purportedly credible witnesses and you, unless I have missed something, have not. True, not enough, but more than your PU. ;)


Joseph Smith claimed to have 11 purportedly credible witnesses that saw the gold plates. Are you ready to become a Mormon? Plenty of people claim they were abducted by aliens. Plenty of people believe and will swear on their grandmothers grave that their local shaman has supernatural healing powers. The claims of (purportedly) credible witnesses are no substitute for the scientific method, with carefully controlled double blind studies, impartial independent replication, impartial independent peer review, comprehensive data recording and sharing, etc. Lacking such controls, Rossi and his purportedly credible witnesses are still in the same category my claimed invisible pink unicorn. I say it is there. My wife will gladly agree with me. No the burden is on you to accept the truth of the wonderful invisible pink unicorn. We are thinking of breeding them. I suggest you invest now.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

--Philip K. Dick

303
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Re: 10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Postby 303 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:58 am

Since no one has ever seen an invisible pink unicorn, is that proof of their existence, proof of their invisibility, or neither?

Rossi on the other hand has shown us his 500kw generator driven water heater and mighty impressive it was too, one has to wonder what a man like that could do with a 5MW, probably could heat a bath or boil an egg.


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