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Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:56 pm
by NotAPhysicist
Sincerity of the various researchers aside I'm not too optimistic about the EM Drive, it seems to have had a reasonable amount of time and attention and some amount of money and doesn't feel like it is really getting anywhere. Be great if I was wrong on that last count but hopefully that will become clearer either way.

Meanwhile the Mach Effect works feels more solid. The work was derived from a theoretical basis, that basis seems to be repeatable using other methods of getting there and the experiments seem to have been done increasingly carefully over the years. You can view the experiments as a way of validating theoretical predictions rather than an attempt to create a drive, though that wasn't the original intention. I'm not an expert in any of this but for all the press attention the EM Drive gets I would say the ME approach seems the more likely bet - long odds as it too may be.

Fingers crossed, I would love to see some new drive tech!

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:17 pm
by ladajo
Well, China, lets see some pics of the test article in space and some formal reporting please. While they may have it, they may also be lying. Wouldn't be the first time.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:16 pm
by ScottL
I hate those click-bait articles. I can't find any sources to back up what they're peddling and the claims keep getting more grandiose. Sites like the ibtimes and nextbigfuture like to throw everything at the wall in hopes that one of them sticks. The pay off is that they can say they were first on the off chance one of the articles turns out true.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:46 pm
by zapkitty
ScottL wrote:I hate those click-bait articles. I can't find any sources to back up what they're peddling... Sites like the ibtimes and nextbigfuture...


Actual EM drive news has been pretty much at a slow but stable rate of "good" news.

The latest being that China says, through official sources, that it has an EM drive-like program, that this program has had some successful ground tests, and that the drive is currently being tested on orbit.

The official piece had some "forward-looking" statements (from a China sat rep) that further successful tests would lead to China switching to EM drive propulsion for all their satellites... which at that point would be about as newsworthy as "water is wet"

And that's all. For now.

But the explosions of repetitive and near-fluff "news" are feedback loops being kicked along by the NSF poster The_Traveller... the person who prematurely leaked the Eagleworks paper without permission and then kept kicking that faux pas along as absolute proof of EM drive viability till hell wouldn't have it.

Traveller > IB times > NBF echoes > Traveller tweaks IB times article > NBF echoes > lather > rinse > repeat...

The Traveller seems dead certain that the EM drive works, and that it works solely according to Roger Shawyer's specific theory(s), and apparently also believes that these media manipulations to gain more attention for the concept are justified... even though his constant flogging of non-news is visibly doing some damage to the discussion of the subject.

Time will tell if the publicity he garners for the EM drive concept will outweigh the damage he's doing.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:39 pm
by NotAPhysicist
Watching all the SSI videos may prove informative. I've not done this yet but it should be interesting. Anyone done this and care to offer some conclusions?

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:25 pm
by ScottL
zapkitty wrote:
ScottL wrote:I hate those click-bait articles. I can't find any sources to back up what they're peddling... Sites like the ibtimes and nextbigfuture...


Actual EM drive news has been pretty much at a slow but stable rate of "good" news.

The latest being that China says, through official sources, that it has an EM drive-like program, that this program has had some successful ground tests, and that the drive is currently being tested on orbit.

The official piece had some "forward-looking" statements (from a China sat rep) that further successful tests would lead to China switching to EM drive propulsion for all their satellites... which at that point would be about as newsworthy as "water is wet"

And that's all. For now.

But the explosions of repetitive and near-fluff "news" are feedback loops being kicked along by the NSF poster The_Traveller... the person who prematurely leaked the Eagleworks paper without permission and then kept kicking that faux pas along as absolute proof of EM drive viability till hell wouldn't have it.

Traveller > IB times > NBF echoes > Traveller tweaks IB times article > NBF echoes > lather > rinse > repeat...

The Traveller seems dead certain that the EM drive works, and that it works solely according to Roger Shawyer's specific theory(s), and apparently also believes that these media manipulations to gain more attention for the concept are justified... even though his constant flogging of non-news is visibly doing some damage to the discussion of the subject.

Time will tell if the publicity he garners for the EM drive concept will outweigh the damage he's doing.


I happen to know Chinese and it's ridiculously easy to get tense wrong, especially from a translation site. As far as the "official" articles are concerned, there is a Professor currently working on the EmDrive and has claimed positive test results. The actual paper doesn't say they are testing an emdrive in orbit at all. It says if ground experiment results hold true, they will. For now they're testing ion thrusters in orbit only.

As for thetraveller, I agree with you. His blanket statements, lack of evidence, lack of proof of even attempting replication, honestly the list goes on, makes me near ignore anything from him. Unfortunately, these sites have latched on to his every word as though he's "in the loop" when he's no where near it.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:32 pm
by kunkmiester
I still want to see an audit of current satellites. If Shawyer got his ideas from seeing thrust on satellite antennae, anyone can run the numbers and find the trend.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:44 pm
by zapkitty
ScottL wrote:I happen to know Chinese and it's ridiculously easy to get tense wrong, especially from a translation site. As far as the "official" articles are concerned, there is a Professor currently working on the EmDrive and has claimed positive test results. The actual paper doesn't say they are testing an emdrive in orbit at all. It says if ground experiment results hold true, they will. For now they're testing ion thrusters in orbit only.


So I'm not even wrong :) Thanks for the info!

ScottL wrote:As for thetraveller... Unfortunately, these sites have latched on to his every word as though he's "in the loop" when he's no where near it.


Well, TT brought them a genuine scoop... although that was a document that he had no business releasing on his own.

With your interpretation of the China news it seems that the damage being done by TT will probably far outweigh any good that he might do.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:55 pm
by ScottL
zapkitty wrote:
ScottL wrote:I happen to know Chinese and it's ridiculously easy to get tense wrong, especially from a translation site. As far as the "official" articles are concerned, there is a Professor currently working on the EmDrive and has claimed positive test results. The actual paper doesn't say they are testing an emdrive in orbit at all. It says if ground experiment results hold true, they will. For now they're testing ion thrusters in orbit only.


So I'm not even wrong :) Thanks for the info!

ScottL wrote:As for thetraveller... Unfortunately, these sites have latched on to his every word as though he's "in the loop" when he's no where near it.


Well, TT brought them a genuine scoop... although that was a document that he had no business releasing on his own.

With your interpretation of the China news it seems that the damage being done by TT will probably far outweigh any good that he might do.


TT friended Paul and Paul had a momentary lapse of judgement in giving TT a copy. Considering it was requested that the leaked document be removed from NSF and reddit (it was, but far too late), I'd say regrets were had. My personal grip with TT is his unfounded claims and lack of evidence. He claims he has test articles and recorded substantial thrust, but never provides any proof or data. I honestly don't think he's done any good nor do I think he ever will. I find the whole situation surrounding the emdrive to be an unfortunate case study of what not to do.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:30 am
by zapkitty
Welp, things might be about to get even more interesting this weekend...

It seems that the CNSA acknowledgment of EMD on orbit was not in that press release but was instead at a press conference that happened some time after the release.

I've found no links to the PR event itself.

This press conference apparently had both an announcement of ongoing tests on the Tiangong 2 station and the followup fluff by the Chinese sat rep.

And now TT sez that the CNSA EMD team lead will speak at an electric propulsion conference in China this weekend... and the subject might be positive on-orbit test results.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:55 pm
by kunkmiester
That "CN" label is confusing me, keeps making me think Canada, though I know that's wrong. In China all the armed forces are under the People's Liberation Army, so everything has that in the acronym, and so things are weird. Don't recall what they call their space people.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:02 pm
by paperburn1
Chinese astronauts are called "taikonauts."
very fast out? google not me :D

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:16 pm
by kunkmiester
I can Google too, probably should have a bit sooner. It's the "Chinese National Space Administration." Apparently they do have a civilian program, I was under a bit of an impression the PLA had a bit more to do with it, at least officially.

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:27 pm
by zapkitty
kunkmiester wrote:I can Google too, probably should have a bit sooner. It's the "Chinese National Space Administration."


Edited my post accordingly... reads almost coherent now :)

Re: EM Drive

Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:39 am
by hanelyp
ScottL wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/EmDrive/comments/5jf32j/eaglework_paper_contains_major_flaws/

Reddit user Eric1600 has a pretty indepth analysis of the EagleWorks experiment and some issues they appear to have overlooked. I know Paul ventures here on occasion, so hopefully this can come to his attention.

Given the magnitude of the signal they're trying to observe, thermal expansion of the test rig could plausibly account for the signal seen.