10KW LENR Demonstrator?

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:14 pm

I think that is my point. Folks developed more of a "wait and see" attitude once the "contract" was announced. Hmmm.

RaneesUm · Post by **RaneesUm** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:46 pm

I can easily understand the complaints people have about the science and evidence behind the E-Cat; about Rossi's character and his history.

But I STILL cannot see the point of conducting such an elaborate hoax, and I also do not believe that that the private individuals and industry interests which fund Rossi and own Defkalion are too stupid to be aware that they are being scammed.

I wish there were more credible discussion here of the motivations (by Rossi as well as the Bologna physicsts as well as the Greek Government, etc.) who stand so much to lose if the 1MW plant goes bust or turns out to be a devious scheme.

The background drama reads like a sub-plot to a pretty good novel.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:01 pm

KitemanSA wrote: Distraction? Supporting a scam in other ways? Are there other "products" of EFA srl that might be researched, products like EON's veggie-oil generator? "Products" is a rather general statement. But this contract lends SOME credance to the E-Cat. Is that the purpose of the contract?

I think they used that wording just to avoid to write that they was going to research and validate a cold fusion device.
By using such general words they can avoid to get involved into any discussion about cold fusion until they can actually test it and understand if it really works as claimed or not.
For this same reason I really do not see this contract as bringing any additional credence to the e-Cat, that is unless one really wants to see it.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:02 pm

KitemanSA wrote:I think that is my point. Folks developed more of a "wait and see" attitude once the "contract" was announced. Hmmm.

Is not like there is much else to do from now till October to know the truth....

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:04 pm

Kahuna wrote:Like I said, this story is not ending anytime soon. I predict > 500 pages.

I really hope much before that... I wouldn't mind to go back and discuss some polywell plasma data sooner or later

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:39 pm

Giorgio wrote:
Kahuna wrote:Like I said, this story is not ending anytime soon. I predict > 500 pages.
I really hope much before that... I wouldn't mind to go back and discuss some polywell plasma data sooner or later

If we get any, I'm sure that all of us would. I think we will continue to get Focus Fusion grist for the mill for sure.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:53 pm

RaneesUm wrote:But I STILL cannot see the point of conducting such an elaborate hoax, and I also do not believe that that the private individuals and industry interests which fund Rossi and own Defkalion are too stupid to be aware that they are being scammed.

I wish there were more credible discussion here of the motivations (by Rossi as well as the Bologna physicsts as well as the Greek Government, etc.) who stand so much to lose if the 1MW plant goes bust or turns out to be a devious scheme.

The background drama reads like a sub-plot to a pretty good novel.

Agree completely. THe list of "reputable" people that are closely associated with this thing is long and grows all the time. WIth Rossi's legal history, its hard to beleive that he thinks he could get away with anything now. I don't know of any place he could hide if this proves to be a fraud. There would have been much safer ways to raise a lot of money than the path he has selected.

That being said, I think there is still a very good chance that the E-Cat works to a degree, but does not meet claims. Self deluision, wishful thinking and sloppy labwork could explain a lot. I suspect that Rossi believes in the E-Cat (or did at least).

The Defkalion claims of COP >= 30 are interesting to me though. At that level, the magitude of probably measurment errors would probably not exceed the COP and the E-Cat probably would be shown to produce net power in a much more convincing manner.

So that begs the question: if Defkalion was delievered a 30 COP E-Cat, why hasn't Rossi been showing it in his demos.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:21 pm

This source has a selection of data/information compiled from the DGT forum regarding Hyperion (AKA E-Cat) products.

http://ecatreport.com/hyperion/defkalio ... d-with-gsm

I must say that some of the detailed answers seem to indicate a fair amount of detailed testing of various configurations. Perhaps they are all extrapolations for Rossi furnished data, but the answers seem to indicate Defkalion performed testing.

Helius · Post by **Helius** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:13 pm

Kahuna wrote:
RaneesUm wrote:But I STILL cannot see the point of conducting such an elaborate hoax, and I also do not believe that that the private individuals and industry interests which fund Rossi and own Defkalion are too stupid to be aware that they are being scammed.

I wish there were more credible discussion here of the motivations (by Rossi as well as the Bologna physicsts as well as the Greek Government, etc.) who stand so much to lose if the 1MW plant goes bust or turns out to be a devious scheme.

The background drama reads like a sub-plot to a pretty good novel.
Agree completely. THe list of "reputable" people that are closely associated with this thing is long and grows all the time. WIth Rossi's legal history, its hard to beleive that he thinks he could get away with anything now. I don't know of any place he could hide if this proves to be a fraud. There would have been much safer ways to raise a lot of money than the path he has selected.

That being said, I think there is still a very good chance that the E-Cat works to a degree, but does not meet claims. Self deluision, wishful thinking and sloppy labwork could explain a lot. I suspect that Rossi believes in the E-Cat (or did at least).

The Defkalion claims of COP >= 30 are interesting to me though. At that level, the magitude of probably measurment errors would probably not exceed the COP and the E-Cat probably would be shown to produce net power in a much more convincing manner.

So that begs the question: if Defkalion was delievered a 30 COP E-Cat, why hasn't Rossi been showing it in his demos.

Agree. There's no outright fraud here. I'm betting that when all is said and done, there *is* energy slightly above unity, which sews confusion everywhere. The problem here is the same as we've seen initially with Randall Mills: Hope is way out ahead of results. Were it not so in the Rossi case, he'd be way out front with his data, instead of his hope.
As it is, he bought himself some time, and still hopes to meet his own hopes and delusional expectations by October.

If we want a model as to how this is going to play out in the longer term, we can look to Randall Mills and Blacklight, whom I also suspect is still running strong on wishful thinking, hope, and delusional expectations. After time, it simply takes on the character and properties of a fraud. They will never meet their expectations with powdered Nickel and hydrogen.

If there is energy above unity for Nickel Hydrides, I hope someone sets out to scientifically collect the data that really pins it down, which hasn't been done yet in any definitive form. Once we have the data, then we can begin to understand and maybe exploit any as yet unidentified processes.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:01 pm

Looks like Sven Kullander (Professor of High Energy Physics at Uppsala University, chairman of the Royal Academy of energy committee) will be lecturing tomorrow on the future of role of cold fusion and the E-Cat.

I don't know if anything will be published but it will be interesting to see if the Krivit revelations and other steam-related criticisms have dampened his enthusiasm for Rossi "invention."

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... r-varm-%2F

KitemanSA · Post by **KitemanSA** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:24 pm

Kahuna wrote:Agree completely. THe list of "reputable" people that are closely associated with this thing is long and grows all the time.

Would you be so kind as to start listing said reputable people?

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:46 pm

KitemanSA wrote:
Kahuna wrote:Agree completely. THe list of "reputable" people that are closely associated with this thing is long and grows all the time.
Would you be so kind as to start listing said reputable people?

I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.

ScottL · Post by **ScottL** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:20 pm

Kahuna wrote:I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.

I think Kite wants to point out the difference between those who say that it works and those that say its great if it works. The only people truly backing it right now as far as I know are Focardi and Levi. I don't know of any other reputable scientists that are actively stating anything more than "it's nice if it works."

sparkyy0007 · Post by **sparkyy0007** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:59 pm

ScottL wrote:
Kahuna wrote:I could, with some effort, prepare a non-exhaustive list although I guess I would like to know the objective behind your request first. Around here, such a request might be deemed tantamount to being asked to "please hold your arm" out by one holding a very sharp sword. So excuse me for asking the purpose prior to being totally disarmed.
I think Kite wants to point out the difference between those who say that it works and those that say its great if it works. The only people truly backing it right now as far as I know are Focardi and Levi. I don't know of any other reputable scientists that are actively stating anything more than "it's nice if it works."

And the "reputable" peoples words that have been twisted (ALL OF THEM!).
I have not seen ONE SINGLE REPORT from any reputables that state unequivocally that based on the DATA this thing works period.

I am not saying it doesn't work, I hope it does, but it would be SOOO easy to prove it does, if it does, but he won't, so we wait and speculate.

RaneesUm · Post by **RaneesUm** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:13 pm

So much of the discussion here revolves around the scientific reasons why Rossi's E-Cat could not possibly work, and how easily it could be proven that it does or doesn't.

But does anyone here have any decent speculations as to why this stunt (if that's what it is) is being pulled in the first place? Focardi and Levi are in a position to know whether their man is a con artist or not. And if Rossi IS a con-artist, who the hell is he conning?

This is the more curious thing to my way of thinking. What are the motivations here? What are Rossi's expectations if he indeed is a liar? There doesn't appear to be any gain in it for him or anyone else involved in it.