10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Axil]

I find your enthusiasm about getting to a possible explanation about Rossi mechanism admirable, yet groundless and pointless.

Giorgio:

You have loss the spirit that has made Polywell so attractive to so many people; its open source nature, its spirit of intellectual collaboration; a rejection to the ownership of mechanisms of nature, the proprietary limits and restrictions of ideas; the promotion of creative thinking through public discourse, a Wikipedia style open source intelligence to the challenge of energy generation, and the democratic process and promotion of the freedom and sharing of information.

What’s the problem? My guess; this diminished and atrophied spirit might most probably spring from a depression insipient with the Navy’s imposition of secrecy over the development of Polywell.

Still many fusion advocates on this site yearn for those heady days long passed when Polywell was invigorated with the giddy enthusiasm of intellectual freedom; and still praise and admire the openness and friendly sharing that still remains in the development activities of plasmoid fusion.

Having said that, the development and general acceptance of the Rossi reactor will be greatly retarded by the drag of proprietary restrictions and the profit motive.

Being inherently small, uncomplicated and inexpensive in its scope, the nickel/hydrogen LENR paradigm can advance at great speed as a solution to world energy needs if an open source development mentality comparable to what has propelled the meteoric growth of the internet comes to pass. My efforts and reason is directed towards this end. I am saddened and disappointed that you find this thinking groundless and pointless. I had hoped that in you I would find a valued ally in this effort.

[Giorgio]

Axil, you are misjudging the situation.

Polywell was never what you described. The main reason for the creation of this forum was to spread the news and create interest about Polywell and to create a community where people could lobby in favour of a new round of financing to revive the research and follow it through the forum.
The possibility of the open source approach came as a reaction to the drain of info that we used to get from Dr. Nebel, but we all know very well that you can't open source something that you didn't even prove yet that has a chance of working in the projected parameters.

As for the Rossi reactor, we really can't believe what Ing. Rossi is saying just because it is something we like to hear or we hope to be true.
The fact is that we have NO proof nor hints that his system will work as he described. Each one of us might have a personal idea about that reactor and its working principles, but these ideas are baseless as they are not supported by any scientific data.

As I said before, I will be more than happy to be proven wrong and to see this technology change our way of life but I am not ready to blindly believe someone claims without some real data or a working test done in a scientific and professional way.

Until that will happen we are just illuding ourself.

[parallel]

The fact is that we have NO proof nor hints that his system will work as he described.

Not even hints? All the gentlemen involved in the tests are idiots or liars?
Your bias is showing.

[Kahuna]

Rossi reveals some details on funding for his E-Cat which may (or may not) say something about scam allegations (or at least the profit motive for same):

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 123849.ece

Rossi: “I am assuming all the risks. No one is risking any money except me...”

One thing that is a bit bothersome in the article is that Levi (U of Bologna) who conducted the E-Cat experiments thus far looks like he (i.e. his University Dept.) will get 500K Eur for research from Rossi. On the other hand, I would guess that Levi and the University's rep will be toast if this ends up being an out-and-out fraud. That is probably unlikely IMO.

[Giorgio]

The fact is that we have NO proof nor hints that his system will work as he described.

Not even hints? All the gentlemen involved in the tests are idiots or liars?
Your bias is showing.

You lack critical thinking.
I have heard arguments like yours every time someone comes out claiming a new energy source or a magnetic motor and so on.

All what we have for now is their word and nothing else.
They need not to be idiots nor liars, they just need to be convinced that they actually are having something new in their hands. Most of the times this is enough to push even die hard scientists to make some common mistakes.

You wish to believe them from now? Feel free to do so.
I will wait until October to see if they will make a proper experiment with the 1 MW reactor or if they will end in limbo with all the others wannabe.

[Kahuna]

You wish to believe them from now? Feel free to do so.
I will wait until October to see if they will make a proper experiment with the 1 MW reactor or if they will end in limbo with all the others wannabe.

You may not have to wait that long. Evidently the 1 MW Factory is being fabricated in Florida (at a Rossi Firm) and will likley be tested/demonstrated before it is shipped to Greece. This is estimated to be within three months. If this actually happens and a new cast of qualified and independent observers are invited, it should advance E-Cat's credibility measurably. We will see.

[Kahuna]

In an earlier post, I mentioned that NyTeknik was sponsering a Q&A session with Rossi today. Here is the transcript:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_m ... 124146.ece

Here are some excerpts of interest:

Fråga: If no gammas are observed, what is the reason to believe nuclear reactions are involved? / Göran Ericsson

Svar Rossi: We observed gammas under the 300 keV range. We did not find, so far, the couples at 180 degrees at 511 keV, and the research we are continuing with the University of Bologna is aimed also to better probe the specter of the gamma produced. It will take some month of research, after which we will be able to better understand the theory at the root of the thermal effect.

We have to calculate also the recoil energy, integrated with the kinetic energy we produce. We want to correlate the thermal effect with the gamma specter we will define. We also are continuing to analyze the atomic and isotopical transmutation, to correlate it to the gamma and to the thermal effect. I want to know if Cu 59, 60, 61, 62 decay by electron capture, instead of beta plus emission; if so a very interesting consideration can be derived.

This is a very difficult research we are investing on (my money). And, at last, if we will not find high energy gamma and 511 keV couples, well, we will have to think about a new rule. It would not be the first time: they have digged a big hole, there, in Geneva, to understand things, and they are finding things that by the classic physics could not happen, particle that by the classic physics could not exist. But those things, evidently, are not good Physics students, so they insist to exist. Just read the "Nuclear Models" of Greiner Maruhn to get a taste of this.

...

Fråga: Dear Sir, Do you get any "toxic" waste in the process? / Thomas Vilhar

Svar Rossi: Not at all. We do not use radioactive material and we do not produce lasting radioactive materials. After a few hours all the radioactivity produced inside the E-Cat is turned into heat.

...

Fråga: What did you made start investigating Ni-H reactions? / Jurgen

Svar Rossi: The idea started from the premise that using very high pressure could increase the kinetic energy of protons to obtain nuclear reactions, since one can reach very high pressures with relatively low forces by reducing the surface area on which the pressure is focused.

At this point the natural candidate to provide the hammer exerting the pressure could only be hydrogen, while as the anvil on which to exert pressure, the atoms of the column number 10 of the periodic table of Mendelejev are most suitable for their high affinity with hydrogen. Obviously nickel is chosen for cost reasons.

[chrismb]

Evidently the 1 MW Factory is being fabricated in Florida ...before it is shipped to Greece.

I do not understand why you folks can't see this is 'proof' that things are amiss. He has no patent protection, because he has not disclosed the working principle to the examiners.

Without having done so, it will be a simple thing to reverse engineer it and Rossi will be [quite legally] pushed out of the picture.

If he's in it for the science, he should go ahead and make public ALL his material. If he's in it for money, he HAS TO ensure IP protection.

The only circumstances a person would not ensure IP protection before commencing commercial operations is if he is confident that no-one will work out how [or can be bothered] to reproduce it. But we know this option is not the case because he has admitted to not knowing the theory, ergo if he doesn't know it then he cannot know if it is easily reproduced by someone with a better understanding [or means to establish understanding].

I am dumbfounded that you cannot see the supposed act of commercial manufacture is actually a demonstration of something seriously amiss.

[Enginerd]

Not even hints? All the gentlemen involved in the tests are idiots or liars?

Things are not always that simple. Lots of people believe in miracles and angels and aliens. Some people even believe that solar and wind energy will be able to power all human societies. That does not make them idiots or liars. People who fervently believe things despite insufficient evidence may very well be very smart and very honest. But sometimes smart people believe things despite insufficient evidence due to their own cognitive biases, misplaced trust, wishful thinking, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGQQQULucI

None the less, in this case, all we really have at this point is the word of these people. We can't reproduce the alleged effect ourselves. That means we have to rely on hearsay.

[Skipjack]

James Randi had a very good speech at NASA look it up on youtube. I can highly recommend it.
In this speech he explains in his uncomparable way how and especially why we all are making assumptions every day of our lives. We actuially have to make assumption is order to function. But, of course these assumptions can sometimes lead to mistakes and wrong conclusions. Even honest scientists can fool themselves because of that.
So yes, this is not completely impossible.
But... in regards to Rossi, I just cant believe that this is a mistake. It is either for real, or it is fraud. You cant mistakenly generate 15kW for 18 hours... It either happened (for real) or it did not (fraud).
I am not sure what this is but I am leaning slightly more towards fraud. I have no problem with waiting the alleged two or three more months until we allegedly will know more.

[kurt9]

Axil, you are misjudging the situation.

Polywell was never what you described. The main reason for the creation of this forum was to spread the news and create interest about Polywell and to create a community where people could lobby in favour of a new round of financing to revive the research and follow it through the forum.
The possibility of the open source approach came as a reaction to the drain of info that we used to get from Dr. Nebel, but we all know very well that you can't open source something that you didn't even prove yet that has a chance of working in the projected parameters.

As for the Rossi reactor, we really can't believe what Ing. Rossi is saying just because it is something we like to hear or we hope to be true.
The fact is that we have NO proof nor hints that his system will work as he described. Each one of us might have a personal idea about that reactor and its working principles, but these ideas are baseless as they are not supported by any scientific data.

As I said before, I will be more than happy to be proven wrong and to see this technology change our way of life but I am not ready to blindly believe someone claims without some real data or a working test done in a scientific and professional way.

Until that will happen we are just illuding ourself.

I agree. Since we do not know the technical details of the device, commercial success is the only meaningful reality test.

[parallel]

Georgio,

You lack critical thinking.

I lack critical thinking because you say so?

Rossi’s E-Cat has been shown to generate heat. As far as known publicaly no one has invested money in his project and you couldn’t do so now if you wanted to. So we don’t know how it works and I think it likely that these recent demonstrations have been partly to persuade the patent office that he really has something. He would be foolish to disclose exactly how it works before getting protection, despite chrismb’s earlier claim that he should.

Who cares whether you think it works or is a fraud? You are not stopping anyone from making a bad investment – they can’t. Like others here, you don’t have a clue about whether it is real or not. Just idle speculation about him being guilty until being proven innocent.

My critical thinking says there is not enough information to judge. You prefer to jump to conclusions.

[ltgbrown]

I don't see what the problem is with Axil exploring publicly on this forum how Rossi's LENR (if it is NR) works? Instead of telling him he is Dillusional, how about picking apart his ideas? In a polite and civil manner.

[parallel]

The NextBigFuture has a piece today, but nothing new. It does seem the media is starting to take notice.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/andrea ... .html#more

[ladajo]

Course the fact that he hangs around here like the rest of us may be part of the reason for the article...

Hi Brian!