10KW LENR Demonstrator?

chrismb · Post by **chrismb** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:20 am

Axil wrote:Yittrium is not a hydrogen catalyst whereas technetium is and Rossi has probably experimented with it.

You breadth of scientific knowledge knows no bounds. I couldn't tell you if Tc is a catalyst for H, much as I can't for Sr [or Y].

Has Tc really been used as a catalyst before?

Axil wrote:The radioactive isotope of Yittrium may work well in a LENR environment as an electron donor but it is highly unlikely that Rossi would have thought to use Yittrium in his waste to oil trials.

Whereas Tc is such an obvious choice! Ah! Riiiight!.....

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:32 am

Rossi can probably get the stuff from his Italian or Greek operation without the need for a US research permit, but this is getting into unproductive detail. This would be one part of his business plan.

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:36 am

From one of my privious posts as follows:

Like rhenium and palladium, technetium can serve as a catalyst. For some reactions, for example the dehydrogenation of isopropyl alcohol or saturated fats, it is a far more effective catalyst than either rhenium or palladium and is the top absorber of hydrogen among all the metals.

try google to verify.

Giorgio · Post by **Giorgio** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:30 am

Axil,

I find your enthusiasm about getting to a possible explanation about Rossi mechanism admirable, yet groundless and pointless.

Chrismb comments makes perfectly sense in regarding to Tc, especially from a commercial cost point of view and from a safety point of view. Tc is still a radioactive material after all, and who is really going to allow any type of radioactive catalist to be commercialized for home/neighbourhood power generation?
Sometimes a sanity check can give us more hints than what we can get from pure scientific knowledge.

Anyhow, there is so many missing tiles in this puzzle that we might spend the next years discussing about 1000 possible explanations without even getting near to what really is going on inside those tubes. Plus you are giving for granted that this technology does really work which, IMHO, is not something we are even slightly sure yet.

Let's just scale down this whole discussion and patiently wait until more info (if any) will be disclosed by Ing. Rossi and partners.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:08 pm

Not sure if this document has been posted before:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Rothwe ... ftechn.pdf

It has a pretty good summary of the experiments FWIW.

Also, NyTeknik is sponsoring a Q&A with Rossi on his ECat on March 11. Contact info here:

http://translate.google.se/translate?u= ... =&ie=UTF-8

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:39 pm

Chrismb comments makes perfectly sense in regarding to Tc, especially from a commercial cost point of view

Palladium price today is about $.26 per gram. Palladium is a spillover catalyst used in most cold fusion reactors; that is in the Rossi case a catalyst that turns H2 into H so that the H can be more easily absorbed onto the surface of the Nickel powder. Usually, about 1% of the total catalyst weight is spill over catalyst.

Since Rossi is only using a single gram of nickel then the cost of the spill over catalyst would be 1% of $.26 or $0.0026

If Rossi used technetium instead of palladium, its cost per reactor would be about twice as much as Palladium or $0.005 for .01 grams; a half a penny.

Tc is still a radioactive material after all, and who is really going to allow any type of radioactive catalist to be commercialized for home/neighbourhood power generation?

True.

The Rossi reactor will not be permitted to be commercialized for home/neighbourhood power generation.

The reason for the October 1 megawatt demo is to show the feasibility of his reactor in an industrial setting demonstrating utility in an industrial power factor. A 10 kilowatt reactor is too small for the industrial market.

there is so many missing tiles in this puzzle that we might spend the next years discussing about 1000 possible explanations

.

The information in the Rossi patent greatly reduces the set of possibilities to a relative few. I am particularly intrigued by the line in the patent that states nickel powder can be replaced by copper powder.

13. An apparatus according to claim 5,
characterized in that said nickel powder is replaceable
by a copper powder.

I conclude, any metal with a high work function(a metal that holds onto hydrogen really tight at its surface) can be used in this reaction if accompanied by the secret spill over catalyst.

The Rossi process is all made possible by .01 grams of this magic stuff.

chrismb · Post by **chrismb** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:55 pm

Axil wrote:Palladium price today is about $.26 per gram.

So you reckon 10 kg of palladium is $26? I tell you what, can I contract you to send me 10 kg of palladium and I'll send you $500? That way you'll be doubling your money. Agreed?

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:05 pm

chrismb wrote:
Axil wrote:Palladium price today is about $.26 per gram.
So you reckon 10 kg of palladium is $26? I tell you what, can I contract you to send me 10 kg of palladium and I'll send you $500? That way you'll be doubling your money. Agreed?

Sorry, I am off by a few decimal places, please allow me to correct myself.

Sorry, I am off by a few decimal places, please allow me to correct myself.

Palladium price today is about $26 per gram. Palladium is a spillover catalyst used in most cold fusion reactors; that is in the Rossi case a catalyst that turns H2 into H so that the H can be more easily absorbed onto the surface of the Nickel powder. Usually, about 1% of the total catalyst weight is spill over catalyst.

Since Rossi is only using a single gram of nickel then the cost of the spill over catalyst would be 1% of $26 or $0.26

If Rossi used technetium instead of palladium, its cost per reactor would be about twice as much as Palladium or $0.5 for .01 grams; a half a dollar.

PS: It makes sense to me that the secret catalyst would have to be something exotic and seldom used. If it were in common use, someone would have detected the appearance of abnormal heat production by now.

this line could well apply to Rossi wrote: Robert Frost (1874–1963):

Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

ltgbrown · Post by **ltgbrown** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:02 pm

10 kg of palladium is $26

Ah, how many grams are in 10 Kilograms? 10,000 right? So, 10 kg at $.26 per gram is $2600. Of course, that is still two decimal places off the actual cost. So Chrismb would still be making a killing.

Aragosta · Post by **Aragosta** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:59 am

ltgbrown wrote: Ah, how many grams are in 10 Kilograms? 10,000 right? So, 10 kg at $.26 per gram is $2600. Of course, that is still two decimal places off the actual cost. So Chrismb would still be making a killing.

Then Chris would be able to market it to the masses of us with a Rossi E-Cat. She would profit even more.

Hey look... More credible folks weighing in...
Cold Fusion: Physicists Sven Kullander and Hanno Essén interviewed about the Rossi-Focardi cell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt2JqEma ... r_embedded

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:32 am

Mr. Bradley, I think you will need to be speaking to your wife about your un-annouced sex change operation.

parallel · Post by **parallel** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:23 pm

Aragosta,

I provided a link to that talk on page 29

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm

the work function is the minimum energy (usually measured in electron volts) needed to remove an electron from a solid to a point immediately outside the solid surface

Some thoughts on work function…

Code: Select all


Barium              2.11 eV
   
 
Cadmium           4.07 eV
   
 
Calcium             2.24 eV
   
 
Carbon              4.34 eV
   
 
Cerium               2.6 eV 
   
 
Cesium               1.81 eV
   
 
Chromium           4.60 eV
   
 
Cobalt               4.40 eV
   
 
Copper               4.26 eV
   
 
Gallium               4.12 eV
   
 
Gold                  4.32 eV
   
 
Hafnium             3.53 eV
   
 
Iridium               5.3 eV 
   
 
Iron                  4.25 eV
   
 
Lanthanum         3.3 eV 
   
 
Manganese         3.83 eV
   
 
Molybdenum       4.20 eV
   
 
Neodymium        3.3 eV 
      
 
Nickel               5.03 eV
   
 
Niobium            4.01 eV
   
   
Palladium          4.99 eV
   
 
Platinum           5.32 eV
   
 
Praseodymium   2.7 eV 
   
 
Rhenium           5.1 eV 
   
 
Rhodium          4.80 eV
   
 
Samarium        3.2 eV 
   
 
Silicon            3.59 eV
   
 
Silver             3.56 eV
   
 
Tantalum        4.19 eV
   
 
Thorium         3.35 eV
    
 
Titanium        3.95 eV
   
 
Tungsten      4.52 eV
   
 
Uranium        3.27 eV
   
 
Vanadium      4.12 eV
   
 
Zirconium      4.21 eV

I suspect that work function of an element is a measure of applicability of that element to the LENR process.

If this is true, Nickel with a work function of 5.03 is one of the best elements for LENR applications.

Platinum @ 5.32 eV and esspecially Palladium @ 4.99 eV, have been used extensivally in LENR reactors, their work functions are at the top of the heap.

The Rossi patent states that copper @ 4.26 can replace nickel, so all the elements with a work function of around 4.26 or above might do just as well as nickel: Chromium @ 4.60 eV, and Cobalt @ 4.40 eV, for example.

The operation of the Rossi reactor can tolerate alloying of copper (an ash product) to some degree, so the nickel need not be pure thus suggesting that alloying is possible.

The Piantelli patent states he got good heat from a 50/50 alloy of chrome and nickel so alloying of elements of similar work function will probably work.

Axil · Post by **Axil** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:06 am

I wanted to re-verify Rossi’e motivation to hide the radiation pattern coming from the inside of his reactor as follows from an interview:

22PASSI - Let's go back to the reasons for your caution, we are talking about secrets of the other elements in addition to the nickel and hydrogen involved in the reaction? This is what would be revealed due to a thorough analysis of the range of the radioactive spectrum, right?

ROSSI - Of course, just that.. the composition of the powder inside of the machine is the essence of the reaction, because using only nickel and hydrogen nothing comes out. So what compromise did we make? I had to put Professor Villa's counters in a second position and angle that I thought could be safe, to see something but not too much, but I was so careful that eventually the counters did not pick up anything. This is the problem.

Beta emissions are blocked by the thinnest in shielding and even a distance of air. A properly positioned radiation probe will see gammas and X-rays but not beta rays.

Kahuna · Post by **Kahuna** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 pm

This article contains lots of interesting info/speculation regarding the Rossi E-Cat:

http://pesn.com/2011/03/07/9501782_Cold ... niversity/

In Summary:

The saga of Andrea Rossi's Nickel-Hydrogen Cold Fusion technology is only accelerating and not slowing down. Physicists are warming up to the technology, new calorimeter tests are forthcoming, media announcements are on the way, and a year long testing program at the University of Bologna has started. With a demonstration of the one megawatt system in the USA in the works (before it is shipped to Europe) and the opening of the one megawatt plant in Greece by late this October things are only going to keep moving faster.