10KW LENR Demonstrator?

[Axil]

I've wondered why there isn't more interest in Piantelli's work in this thread. Didn't he publish sufficient instructions to allow for independent replication of a claim of achieving reliable, if very modest, production of heat? Or do I have the wrong impression?

EDIT: http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2 ... g.shtml#pf

Because then we might have to get off our butts and DO something rather than just flappin our gums about how someone else hasn't done things the way WE think he should have.

Yes, exactly.

Piantelli isn't making media interviews and announcing an imminent 1MW deal that will then mean polywell has no further purpose.

Therefore we do not put any gum-flapping effort into it, else where do we stop with every other scientific bit of effort that isn't claiming anything.

that will then mean polywell has no further purpose.

You never put all your eggs in one basket, and there is no silver bullet. Many diverse and promising energy systems should be funded though the prototype stage of development.

Your fear that a cold fusion reactor will kill polywell is not well founded because no one knows what the future will bring and energy production is too important to be left to only one provider.

[Giorgio]

He has stated that he is NOT going to provide facts. We all lambast him for not providing them. We then emulate him and make all sorts of arguments against him "without facts". How then are we purer than he is?
FACTS? Anyone? FACTS?

So, if I now make a statement about Rossi work and I also state that I will NOT provide facts in support of it, will the same logic apply to me?

Come on Kite, you are too smart to not understand how this logic is flawed at his very base, and this regardless of Rossi being right or wrong.

[Giorgio]

My kind advice is not to seek nuclear nature where conditions of very well researched reaction are observed:

Metal hydrides are the binary combination of hydrogen and a metal or metal alloy. Metal hydrides have been used in many industrial applications such as battery electrode material, hydrogen storage medium and heat pump system [Park et al., 2005; Kang et al., 1996; Fateev et al., 1996; Lloyd et al., 1998; Kim et al., 1998a, 1998b; Houston and Sanrock, 1980]. The hydriding (exothermic) and dehydriding (endothermic) reactions of a metal hydride can be expressed as:….

http://www.1-act.com/pdf/mhhst.pdf

I checked every known chemical reaction. If the claimed quantity of heat is real than there no chemical reaction that can justify it in respect to the reactor volume.

[chrismb]

Your fear that a cold fusion reactor will kill polywell is not well founded because no one knows what the future will bring and energy production is too important to be left to only one provider.

On the contrary. If you can produce 1MW out of a shipping container size, produces no nucelar radiations and uses low voltages, there would simply be no purpose in pursuing 'hot' fusion any more. None whatsoever.

Some things just aren't worth doing in the 'mix' of energy, and if this works then nothing will be worth doing afterwards. It is that simple. Why do you think this is a Big Deal!?

[Joseph Chikva]

My kind advice is not to seek nuclear nature where conditions of very well researched reaction are observed:

Metal hydrides are the binary combination of hydrogen and a metal or metal alloy. Metal hydrides have been used in many industrial applications such as battery electrode material, hydrogen storage medium and heat pump system [Park et al., 2005; Kang et al., 1996; Fateev et al., 1996; Lloyd et al., 1998; Kim et al., 1998a, 1998b; Houston and Sanrock, 1980]. The hydriding (exothermic) and dehydriding (endothermic) reactions of a metal hydride can be expressed as:….

http://www.1-act.com/pdf/mhhst.pdf

I checked every known chemical reaction. If the claimed quantity of heat is real than there no chemical reaction that can justify it in respect to the reactor volume.

What every known? Please teach me.
I know only hydriding.

If the claimed quantity of heat is real

Are you still sure in their claims?

[Giorgio]

What every known? Please teach me.
I know only hydriding.

There is several, but I will limit to the two most common and energetic used in mining industry:
NiO + H2 that gives about 50 Wh/kg.
NiO + CO that gives about 200 Wh/kg.

Are you still sure in their claims?

I am getting more and more convinced that they are just misreading their results due to bad experimental setup.

[Joseph Chikva]

There is several, but I will limit to the two most common and energetic used in mining industry:
NiO + H2 that gives about 50 Wh/kg.
NiO + CO that gives about 200 Wh/kg.

Those are metallurgical reduction reactions. And do you not see the difference between Nickel and Nickel Oxide? Where Rossi claimed about carbon monoxide?
I guessed from the beginning that only one reaction should be checked:
H+Ni => NiH

[tomclarke]

Colored means that Mr. Rossi should prove that his device produces nuclear power and not chemical. He could not do that.
All the rest is not so important.

"Aughta ain't is" and "should ain't gonna". Seems Rossi feels he "SHOULD" do what he is doing and fooey on those who say he SHOULD do something else.

If you have any FACTS why this thing should or shouldn't work, please present them. Other than that, it's just your lips flappin.

I've done a little looking and can't find a reason why something like this CAN'T work. Do you have one? I have no idea whether ROSSI's works or not, but it wouldn't upset my world view if one of these H:Ni systems is finally proven to produce nuclear reactions. Do you have FACTS to add to the discussion? Relavent facts?

Anyone?

FACT - proposed system does not fit into current physics without something very extraordinary (like 700keV electrons in a lattice). Even then the ash residues do not match what would be expected.

FACT - 20 years of experimenting with Ni-H and other metal-hydrogen systems has led to no publishable & repeatable experimental evidence of non-chemical heat generation

FACT - Rossi's statements on his blog about what he is doing are self-contradictory

FACT - Rossi has previously promised cheap energy from new technology, this did not work.

FACT - Rossi has been in trouble with the law

FACT - Rossi's public demos do not show nuclear-level heat output, because it is not clear what their heat output is.

FACT - Rossi's only (non-public) demo with easy to measure heat output ran with output temperature below ambient therefore making measurement error of output very possible.

FACT - Rossi treats polite and favourably disposed journalists as snakes in the grass when they ask technical questions.

The first two facts mean that you need very good evidence before it is rational to expect any such a system to work. The remaining facts show why the Rossi evidence is not very good.

[Giorgio]

There is several, but I will limit to the two most common and energetic used in mining industry:
NiO + H2 that gives about 50 Wh/kg.
NiO + CO that gives about 200 Wh/kg.

Those are metallurgical reduction reactions. And do you not see the difference between Nickel and Nickel Oxide? Where Rossi claimed about carbon monoxide?
I guessed from the beginning that only one reaction should be checked:
H+Ni => NiH

Are you sure it is Ni that he is using and not NiO?
Are you sure that is H2 in that bottle instead of CO?

What I did was just to verify thermal density of any KNOWN chemical reaction involving Ni, NiO and other Ni compounds to exclude the chemical route.
Even the paper one you linked to is using "10 Kg" of material to release only 1,2 MJ of heat in 500 sec (or 900 sec) time.

As I said, there is no possible chemical reaction involving Ni and H or compounds thereof that can give their claimed thermal output.

[Joseph Chikva]

Colored means that Mr. Rossi should prove that his device produces nuclear power and not chemical. He could not do that.
All the rest is not so important.

"Aughta ain't is" and "should ain't gonna". Seems Rossi feels he "SHOULD" do what he is doing and fooey on those who say he SHOULD do something else.

If you have any FACTS why this thing should or shouldn't work, please present them. Other than that, it's just your lips flappin.

I've done a little looking and can't find a reason why something like this CAN'T work. Do you have one? I have no idea whether ROSSI's works or not, but it wouldn't upset my world view if one of these H:Ni systems is finally proven to produce nuclear reactions. Do you have FACTS to add to the discussion? Relavent facts?

Anyone?

FACT - proposed system does not fit into current physics without something very extraordinary (like 700keV electrons in a lattice). Even then the ash residues do not match what would be expected.

FACT - 20 years of experimenting with Ni-H and other metal-hydrogen systems has led to no publishable & repeatable experimental evidence of non-chemical heat generation

FACT - Rossi's statements on his blog about what he is doing are self-contradictory

FACT - Rossi has previously promised cheap energy from new technology, this did not work.

FACT - Rossi has been in trouble with the law

FACT - Rossi's public demos do not show nuclear-level heat output, because it is not clear what their heat output is.

FACT - Rossi's only (non-public) demo with easy to measure heat output ran with output temperature below ambient therefore making measurement error of output very possible.

FACT - Rossi treats polite and favourably disposed journalists as snakes in the grass when they ask technical questions.

The first two facts mean that you need very good evidence before it is rational to expect any such a system to work. The remaining facts show why the Rossi evidence is not very good.

Fact that he can not measure heat. "700 keV electron in lattice"?

[KitemanSA]

No, not me but the person who claims that with the help of some magic powder he executes nuclear reaction at 500C should prove its possibility.

Perhaps he thinks he has proven its possibility to his and his customer's satisfaction. Our desires really have no weight in his case.

As I said you earlier that on base what I know, nothing else than Nickel Hydride creation chemical reaction will occur. With some heat energy releasing.

At least one person has determined that (in the absense of fraud or error) the energy release far exceeds any potential chamical source.

There also inputs some energy with the help of electric heaters. So, device can heat water and produce steam.
I do not know anything else. Who knows please share. I would be grateful to learn more.

IBID.

[KitemanSA]

He has stated that he is NOT going to provide facts. We all lambast him for not providing them. We then emulate him and make all sorts of arguments against him "without facts". How then are we purer than he is?
FACTS? Anyone? FACTS?

So, if I now make a statement about Rossi work and I also state that I will NOT provide facts in support of it, will the same logic apply to me?

Yes, but I expect us to be purer than he. Should I be calling you "Rossi"?

Come on Kite, you are too smart to not understand how this logic is flawed at his very base, and this regardless of Rossi being right or wrong.

Perhaps, but then I would really prefer to be able to be proud of the quality of the posters here. Pride is such flawed motivation!

[Joseph Chikva]

There is several, but I will limit to the two most common and energetic used in mining industry:
NiO + H2 that gives about 50 Wh/kg.
NiO + CO that gives about 200 Wh/kg.

Those are metallurgical reduction reactions. And do you not see the difference between Nickel and Nickel Oxide? Where Rossi claimed about carbon monoxide?
I guessed from the beginning that only one reaction should be checked:
H+Ni => NiH

Are you sure it is Ni that he is using and not NiO?
Are you sure that is H2 in that bottle instead of CO?

What I did was just to verify thermal density of any KNOWN chemical reaction involving Ni, NiO and other Ni compounds to exclude the chemical route.
Even the paper one you linked to is using "10 Kg" of material to release only 1,2 MJ of heat in 500 sec (or 900 sec) time.

As I said, there is no possible chemical reaction involving Ni and H or compounds thereof that can give their claimed thermal output.

Yes I am sure that discussed here on 170 pages Rossi's device was described as nickel's nanopowder (or chemical activated powder) at hydrogen atmosphere reacting with the help of some "secret catalyst". And here was discussed possibility of Ni hydrogen nuclear fusion.

And 1.2 MJ can boil alot of water. Heat capacity of water ~4200 J/kg*deg + electric heaters that was in one drawing that I saw.

[KitemanSA]

Your fear that a cold fusion reactor will kill polywell is not well founded because no one knows what the future will bring and energy production is too important to be left to only one provider.

On the contrary. If you can produce 1MW out of a shipping container size, produces no nucelar radiations and uses low voltages, there would simply be no purpose in pursuing 'hot' fusion any more. None whatsoever.

1MW of heat can be had out of a couple cubic feet with typical oil burners. For mechanical output, a diesel can make that kind of power out of a 10th of a container. Power density matters.

Some things just aren't worth doing in the 'mix' of energy, and if this works then nothing will be worth doing afterwards. It is that simple. Why do you think this is a Big Deal!?

If it actually works and the power density can be raised, this may be true.

[KitemanSA]

Fact that he can not measure heat. "700 keV electron in lattice"?

The PRESUMED requirement for Widom-Larsen theory to work. Keep up, dude!
Did I miss another claim of this condition?
Of course, the KK might have this kind of value build into it. I guess I'll have to check.