10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

D Tibbets wrote:
dch24 wrote:
The other data Rossi presents clearly shows the steam is around 101C (at the thermocouple). Yeah, yeah, without a flow measurement we don't know the power output at that point.

But I don't think you'll get a lot of traction by attacking his assertion in the video, "it is very hot. Because it is so hot, the density is less." Realistically, he's not making a quantitative assertion there. I do think he's unrealistic, trying to explain the image by saying the steam is very hot -- I would expect that kind of talk from a salesman. Nevertheless, attacking it is not that interesting when Rossi freely shows the 101C measurement taken by the thermocouple.
Actually, my recollection was that his claim was that cool steam at ~ 100.1 degrees C. was more cloudy than hotter steam. That is false, except that condensation to small liquid water droplets would occur more quickly as there is less delta T to overcome. My counter argument in my previous post was that at the anticipated flow rates through a rubber (insulated) tube the DRY steam would not start to condense till well after it exited the tube.

As far as merely 100 degree C steam not being so hot, remember that if any steam (even if it is only ~ 15% of the water outflow like my guestimate) hits your hand, it will condense to liquid water, and this will quickly deposit 100Cal/ g of heat (the heat of vaporization). It will easily scald you.

Dan Tibbets
Any steam coming out at 100C, or 100.1C, or 101C on slight overpressure, is clearly not dry.

Dry steam would have some temperature higher than 100C. The chances of the heat output over time being constant and exactly balancing the water input rate X evaporation enthalphy+ inputer temp->100C specific heat is zero. Zilch. The evaporation enthalpy is large, even a 1% increase in output power above this would cause significant temp rise (I am sure somone can do the thermo calcs for this easier than me - my bet is it would be +10C at least - pure guess).

We have been told heat output varies greatly over time. So this is impossible.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

steam 2kJ/kgK
heat of evaporation: 2250 kJ/kg

=> 1% extra would give +11C

A bit more due to 20-100C specific heat added, though this is small relative to heat of evaporation.

Wow - I give myself 5 ****** for good physical intuition - I had no idea what the answer would be!
Last edited by tomclarke on Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

sparkyy0007
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Post by sparkyy0007 »

Carl White wrote:The hose was lying on the floor, with both ends raised. If there was significant condensation, would it not fill up with water and then start to spray and belch water at the open end?
The simple answer No..well, kinda.

Depending on the thermal loss of the hose per meter, a boundary
condition will exist somewhere along the hose where the degree
of superheat from the ecat will keep the steam from condensing.
After that boundry some condensation will occur keeping the hose at 100C.
If the hose is long enough, all the steam will condense leaving only
so called saturated water (water just at the point of vaporization)
http://www.spiraxsarco.com/resources/st ... -water.asp
If the hose is longer still, the sensible heat of the water will try to keep the
hose at 100C but it will loose the battle with the temperature exponentially falling to amb.
If you integrate the temperature loss along that length you end up with the entropy of the steam at the ecat, or any other boiler.
Condensation of the steam releases a lot of energy and in such a short
hose, only a small amount of water condensing is enough to keep the hose at 100C,
but not above (at atm pressure anyway)
The rest of the uncondensed vapor builds a slight pressure
against the condensate blocking the hose and blows it out.
If there is enough vapor, it won't fill up but it will belch as
you put it.

Does this clarify.. or mudify?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote: Have you a hope of discovery something novelty?
You will get Nickel Hydride used for example in Energizer batteries. That's all.
What are you babbling about?
Is all you have to say irrelevant grousing?
Here you are babbling Mr. 700keV in crystal lattice.
Formulation of Nickel Hydride is a single possible reaction in these conditions and these reactants.
We were talking about a simple experiment to show what a 5kW steam flow looks like. What does that have to do with your inanity?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Joseph Chikva wrote: Here you are babbling Mr. 700keV in crystal lattice.
and again, another what the heck are you babbling about?

Am
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Post by Am »


Joseph Chikva
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Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: What are you babbling about?
Is all you have to say irrelevant grousing?
Here you are babbling Mr. 700keV in crystal lattice.
Formulation of Nickel Hydride is a single possible reaction in these conditions and these reactants.
We were talking about a simple experiment to show what a 5kW steam flow looks like. What does that have to do with your inanity?
Mr. "700keV in crystal",
may I am inanity but you are very naive if think that all parameters are truth.
Even that simple experiment was done very badly by amateurs.
Saying water flow 7l/h if it called “experiment” you should have flow-meter, saying hydrogen spent 1 g you should prove also that, saying dry steam you lie as impossible to produce dry steam in those conditions, etc., etc, etc.

What poor Mr. Rossi who even has not his own coffee machine can discover that not discovered by much more skilled people who many many years ago researched Ni, Ti, Pd and other metals hydrides formation in similar conditions?
For your note metal hydrides are considered as energy storage and all effects of energy accumulation and transfer are researched very well.

Joseph Chikva
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Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote: Here you are babbling Mr. 700keV in crystal lattice.
and again, another what the heck are you babbling about?
I am babbling repeating your masterpiece when you admitted the possibility of existence of 700keV electron in crystal lattice.

By the way, jacket in your beloved Rossi's device was empty or full prior the beginning of experiment?

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Joseph Chikva wrote: Mr. "700keV in crystal",
First, what is this about?
Then he wrote: may I am inanity but you are very naive if think that all parameters are truth.
Are you insane as well as inane? I want to do a simple EXPERIMENT. I don't believe any of Rossi's claims. I want to see certain things. Keep up!
Then he wrote: Even that simple experiment was done very badly by amateurs.
Which experiment? Are you refering to the Rossi demo? (Note, D*E*M*O, not experiment.) Be clear.
Then he wrote: Saying water flow 7l/h if it called “experiment”
Who called Rossi's demo an experiment? You? Not I. Not anyone else on this site as far as I know.
Then he wrote:you should have flow-meter, saying hydrogen spent 1 g you should prove also that, saying dry steam you lie as impossible to produce dry steam in those conditions, etc., etc, etc.
English is obviously not your first or even second or third language. Rossi did a DEMO (short for demonstration) NOT an experiment. Duhh! What I want to do is more of an experiment. Again, keep up!
Then he wrote: What poor Mr. Rossi who even has not his own coffee machine can discover that not discovered by much more skilled people who many many years ago researched Ni, Ti, Pd and other metals hydrides formation in similar conditions?
Everyone knows that this whole thing may be a fraud and there are MANY ways to perpetrate that fraud. Yes, the way you continue to harp on is one way provided lots of other things are not as stated. But then, if things are not as stated, the processes you harp on would be among the LEAST simple ways to do it. Are you happy? Do you understand that we know what you are spewing already? you can stop if you want.
Then he wrote: For your note metal hydrides are considered as energy storage and all effects of energy accumulation and transfer are researched very well.
Yes, metals can store hydrogen as hydrides. Yes, metal hydrides can be used to store electrical energy. But given the volumes available and the CLAIMED energy output, NO chemical process can account for it. If it is a fraud, the fraud must come from somewhere else. OK? Enough? Are you satisfied?

Oh, and by the way, doid you notice that the hydrogen WASN'T EVEN CONNECTED during the demo?
Last edited by KitemanSA on Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kahuna
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Post by Kahuna »

Defkalion website is now live at:

http://www.defkalion-energy.com/

NOt much there beyond the Overview document linked above, but I'm sure more is on the way. I already see Defkalion engeneering some wiggle room on the 1 MW plant (4Q 2011 rather than Oct 2011). I'm sure the whole thing will be parsed to death in the blogishere shortly.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

KitemanSA wrote:Oh, and by the way, doid you notice that the hydrogen WAS'T EVEN CONNECTED during the demo?
And he forgot to mention it as well! Presumably, it was a redundant point to his explanation of it operating! :lol:

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote: Here you are babbling Mr. 700keV in crystal lattice.
and again, another what the heck are you babbling about?
I am babbling repeating your masterpiece when you admitted the possibility of existence of 700keV electron in crystal lattice.
Read up on polaritons. And where did I mention 700keV electrons? Please show me.
Then he wrote: By the way, jacket in your beloved Rossi's device was empty or full prior the beginning of experiment?
You really seem to insist on acting the ass. "Beloved Rossi"? Do you have FACTS that disprove his endeavor or do you intend to just repeat inanities? If you have FACTS, facts that haven't been dismissed innumerable times, please provide them.

Joseph Chikva
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Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote: Mr. "700keV in crystal",
First, what is this about?
Then he wrote: may I am inanity but you are very naive if think that all parameters are truth.
Are you insane as well as inane? I want to do a simple EXPERIMENT. I don't believe any of Rossi's claims. I want to see certain things. Keep up!
Then he wrote: Even that simple experiment was done very badly by amateurs.
Which experiment? Are you refering to the Rossi demo? (Note, D*E*M*O, not experiment.) Be clear.
Then he wrote: Saying water flow 7l/h if it called “experiment”
Who called Rossi's demo an experiment? You? Not I. Not anyone else on this site as far as I know.
Then he wrote:you should have flow-meter, saying hydrogen spent 1 g you should prove also that, saying dry steam you lie as impossible to produce dry steam in those conditions, etc., etc, etc.
English is obviously not your first or even second or third language. Rossi did a DEMO (short for demonstration) NOT an experiment. Duhh! What I want to do is more of an experiment. Again, keep up!
Then he wrote: What poor Mr. Rossi who even has not his own coffee machine can discover that not discovered by much more skilled people who many many years ago researched Ni, Ti, Pd and other metals hydrides formation in similar conditions?
Everyone knows that this whole thing may be a fraud and there are MANY ways to perpetrate that fraud. Yes, the way you continue to harp on is one way provided lots of other things are not as stated. But then, if things are not as stated, the processes you harp on would be among the LEAST simple ways to do it. Are you happy? Do you understand that we know what you are spewing already? you can stop if you want.
Then he wrote: For your note metal hydrides are considered as energy storage and all effects of energy accumulation and transfer are researched very well.
Yes, metals can store hydrogen as hydrides. Yes, metal hydrides can be used to store electrical energy. But given the volumes available and the CLAIMED energy output, NO chemical process can account for it. If it is a fraud, the fraud must come from somewhere else. OK? Enough? Are you satisfied?

Oh, and by the way, doid you notice that the hydrogen WAS'T EVEN CONNECTED during the demo?
What the heck are you babbling about? :)
For me there is not a big difference between DEMO and experiment if after that man claims something.
If you can do the experiment do the same as Rossi, add flow-meter, for excluding steam to increase water flow on about 15 times and measure only delta t. Note: you should fill water jacket before starting.
You also should measure spent hydrogen mass and analyze nickel powder before and after experiment.
That's all.
Good luck.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

chrismb wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:Oh, and by the way, doid you notice that the hydrogen WAS'T EVEN CONNECTED during the demo?
And he forgot to mention it as well! Presumably, it was a redundant point to his explanation of it operating! :lol:
Not sure what you are getting at here. He did claim that a <1g charge lasts 24hrs. Yes I recognize it as a "claim", not evidence.

Joseph Chikva
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Post by Joseph Chikva »

KitemanSA wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote: and again, another what the heck are you babbling about?
I am babbling repeating your masterpiece when you admitted the possibility of existence of 700keV electron in crystal lattice.
Read up on polaritons. And where did I mention 700keV electrons? Please show me.
Then he wrote: By the way, jacket in your beloved Rossi's device was empty or full prior the beginning of experiment?
You really seem to insist on acting the ass. "Beloved Rossi"? Do you have FACTS that disprove his endeavor or do you intend to just repeat inanities? If you have FACTS, facts that haven't been dismissed innumerable times, please provide them.
Before polaritons my dear let's learn more simple things. What to show? Are you waiting for that I will search in 180+ pages?
Fact is in very simple thing - this field or in other words the reaction between various metals and hydrogen is researched many years ago. And amateurs can not find there any novelty. And also have nothing to do there.

And if jacket was empty before demo (as you wish) even only 750W external input would give you some steam. As only 450W can provide required 74 deg delta t.

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