10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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KitemanSA
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Re: Steam flow

Postby KitemanSA » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:34 am

D Tibbets wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote: What is ridiculous is the measurement (supposedly) of JUST 100C at one end of a 4m pipe, yet Rossi claims it is still 100C and has lost no heat by the end of the pipe! A perfectly insulated pipe, eh!?
Well, since it is steam at atmospheric, it pretty much HAS to be 100 C along the entire pipe. But the more that gets condensed, the smaller the trickle at the other end. Rossi's statement that it doesn't condense on the way is the most damning for this run. If there was 95% condensation along the way then the trickle at the end might be more realistic.

Chris, can you provide details of your set-up? Hose size and length...
[Edit]I see by a later post that you mention a 50cm length of hose. Thanks.
[/Edit]


Why does steam at atmospheric pressure have to be at 100 degrees C?
This is true for wet steam- steam in contact with liquid water because the liquid water acts as a buffer because of the high heat of vaporization of water. But once the water is all converted to steam (dry steam) the steam can be heated like any other gas.
Yes it can be hotter, but not colder which was the implication I got from Chris.

RaneesUm
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Postby RaneesUm » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:36 am

How could anyone possibly be duped by this supposed scam at this point? I mean, it's one thing to fund cold fusion research because you are an industrial corporation with a venture capital budget, or you're a private individual who is rich enough to do these things and not be fazed by a total loss. It's quite another to be a Mr. John Q who has been taken in by a charlatan. But the news of this has been all over the web now.

And I haven't seen any investor solicitations. Shouldn't they start hustling for victims already? Who is being scammed by this? And if it is merely a monstrous hoax, why are all those physicists at the University of Bologna and other well-regarded European schools participating in it? It would be an instant career wrecker.

The hoax or scam idea just doesn't seem believable. Frankly, nor does the available evidence. So what possible motivations are there for perpetrating a ruse of some kind with the Rossi E-Cat?

Why would these guys do this?
Last edited by RaneesUm on Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

sparkyy0007
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Location: Canada

Re: Steam flow

Postby sparkyy0007 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:39 am

chrismb wrote:
What is ridiculous is the measurement (supposedly) of JUST 100C at one end of a 4m pipe, yet Rossi claims it is still 100C and has lost no heat by the end of the pipe! A perfectly insulated pipe, eh!?



This is actually very true, the temperature at the end of the pipe will be 100C.
There is a vast difference in the term HEAT and TEMPERATURE, they are not synonymous.
The enthalpy of the stream (condensate + steam) will decrease by about 500w
but the temperature will not drop if steam is still coming from the pipe.
This is a very important difference to note as you continue you steam research :)

dch24
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Postby dch24 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:02 am

RaneesUm wrote:How could anyone possibly be duped by this supposed scam at this point?
Lots of people have grave doubts; as you said, "frankly, nor does the available evidence [seem believable]."

RaneesUm wrote:And I haven't seen any investor solicitations. Shouldn't they start hustling for victims already? Who is being scammed by this? ... So what possible motivations are there for perpetrating a ruse of some kind with the Rossi E-Cat?
There's always somebody. Instead of creating imaginary scenarios, just note that by not reeling in the "mark," a patient scammer can succeed on a much larger scale. I do think Focardi and all LENR research will be damaged a great deal by any such scam. And, he might be planning how he will disappear (stage an attempt on his life?). But I don't want to speculate.

Maui
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Postby Maui » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:23 am

RaneesUm wrote:And I haven't seen any investor solicitations. Shouldn't they start hustling for victims already? Who is being scammed by this? And if it is merely a monstrous hoax, why are all those physicists at the University of Bologna and other well-regarded European schools participating in it? It would be an instant career wrecker.

Well, Defkalion is a shell company set up to market the E-Cat. It has been formed with 200 million euros anonymous from donors. Rossi has said he won't receive any money from Defkalion until the plant is up and running, but since really there's only a very blurry line between Defkalion and Rossi, in a way you could say Rossi already has the money.

How he actually makes off with the money might be a bit more complicated, but since Defkalion investors are essentially his investors, if he tells Defkalion the plant is up in running in October, do they actually have anyone with enough expertise that is going to contradict Rossi's word? If they had doubts, they might turn to a professor or two from a major university that has an agreement to study and publish all findings (good or bad) per the E-Cat. But if we assume for a moment Rossi has paid off these professors, what chance is that that anything negative will be published before its too late?

In other words, perhaps the 1MW plant is nothing more than a "final" demo that gets him the money outright. If Rossi's professors proclaim the plant to be working, does Defkalion have the capability to avoid paying Rossi whatever his contract calls for? And that's assuming they even doubt Rossi; Clearly these are people that believe in him he has probably had a large had in organizing Defkalion. If a major university appears to be corroborating that Rossi has indeed produced this 1MW plant, maybe its at this point has officially won the prize.

Also, keep in mind, Rossi says he doesn't get any money from Defkalion until the plant is working... but has anyone seen such a contract? We are taking Rossi at his word here (just like his data from his demos).

(See here for some background on Defkalion)

fusionfan
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Postby fusionfan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:37 am

Chrismb said:
In other words, if there was a flow rate of 7 litres/hr of dry steamcoming out of the pipe, then there would be a pressue drop of 11kPa. As we know the pressure at the end of the pipe is ambient, so the pressure in the E-cat must be just over 1.1 bar, and the boiling point at just over 1.1 bar is... around 104 degrees C, I believe.

So either he's not boiling water at his measured 100C in the E-cat, or he's not flowing 7l/hr. He can't be doing both.


Chris,
Perhaps you were making an error in assuming that 1.1 bar gives a boiling point of 104 degrees? From my look at the data, boiling point at 16 PSI is only 102 degrees C:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boili ... d_926.html

Also, as I think was pointed out earlier, from the Krivit video, it appears that Rossi is using Parker ITR steam hose. This comes in 12, 13, or 15 mm ID.

See pages F4-F8 in their catalog here:
http://www.parkerstore-malz.de/img/industrial_hose.pdf

From the video, around 10:18, you can see the steam outlet hose:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E

To me, it looks like the floor tiles are about 18 inches, and I count about 12 equivalent "floor tile" lengths of hose from ecat to drain, or 216 inches, or 6 meters.

If you go back here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steam ... _1093.html

and input 7 kg/h, 6 m, 15 mm ID, and 0.59 kg/m3 density, you get a pressure drop of 3.1 Kpa, or 1.03 bar. This is equivalent to 15 PSI, which from here:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boili ... d_926.html

Gives a boiling point of 101 degrees C, exactly what Rossi says that he is measuring.

If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.
Last edited by fusionfan on Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

Maui
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Location: Madison, WI

Postby Maui » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:45 am

Wow. There was a reference to "Petroldragon" in that video clip that I didn't follow up with the first time I watched it. (I also hadn't really read much into Rossi's previous trouble with the law).

But look at this: Petroldragon

It really does seem like deja vu all over again, eh?

Maybe the most appropriate bit:
At that time, no journalist, political scientist made a careful analysis of the real scope of the invention and the remaining challenges associated with it.

Joseph Chikva
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Re: Steam flow

Postby Joseph Chikva » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:29 am

D Tibbets wrote:
Joseph Chikva wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
chrismb wrote: What is ridiculous is the measurement (supposedly) of JUST 100C at one end of a 4m pipe, yet Rossi claims it is still 100C and has lost no heat by the end .....
[/Edit]

I understand that you need not my explanations.
As you on a threshold of great discovery. :)
But nevertheless I will explain you if I wish how I would swindle lop-eared amateurs.
• 750W electric input heats up an empty jacket.
• At the same time water with flow 2g/s begins enter into jacket.
• 450-500W is enough for heating up all entering water to 100 Celsius deg.
• Remaining 250-300W will evaporate only part of entering water.
• Remaining water will slowly fill the jacket.
• For avoiding the filling I would install at the bottom of jacket a simple and small drain valve with very small hose.
That’s all, finita la commedia, my little quantum tunneling friend.


Your tricks could certainly be used by someone trying to deceive, at least for a briefly witnessed demonstration. But, the steam output as a portion of the total water output (what percent is vaporized) introduces such a large difference in the true output, that manipulating this factor alone is enough to explain the claimed excess energy, without the need to use other deceits or unexplained physics.
ChrisMB's qualitative demo suggests that this may indeed be the the case.
ie, input heat, water flow rates and measured temperature may all be legitimate. It is the claim that (almost) all of the measured temperature is from dry steam, not a small portion of steam mixed with hot liquid water that can explain the discrepancy.

ChrisMB's demo certainly highlights this discrepency. Also, in the video, he pointed out that Rossi appeared to drain the tube before removing it from the sink drain fits with this picture of hot water draining through the tube with some relatively small quantity of steam bubbling/ percolating through the liquid.
If ChrisMB better quantitates his steam flow and heat input, the steam production claims of Rossi becomes increasingly indefensible.
As mentioned by others, actually quantifying the steam vapor flow by collecting it in a bottle (displacing liquid water) for a modest amount of time, and then demanding that Rossi do the same would fully expose the stupidity or fraud of the machine. It would remove the possibility of misleading steam production claims.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, this is a flawed setup an any case. There is no reason the water flow should not be increased till the delta T is some manageable number (such as 30 degrees C ) where phase transitions are irrelevant. Even course measurements would then suffice to prove or disprove the large heat gains claimed.

As you point out, other deceits still need to be eliminated if the device passes this basic and very easy test.

Dan Tibbets

Well, please explain me for what input of 750W is needed if reaction is exothermic and self-sustained?
For ignition? Ok, ignite and switch off. That is trick. And not my trick but Rossi’s.
It is very funny to read: 6m hose, cold concrete,
Someone is going to make great discovery and buy Lamborghini :)

Ivy Matt
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Postby Ivy Matt » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:18 am

RaneesUm wrote:But the news of this has been all over the web now.

That's due largely to Rossi's decision, apparently at Focardi's urging, to perform a more-or-less public demonstration of the device on January 14. News of it spread like wildfire once it reached Next Big Future and other sites. If it's not a fraud, I have a feeling Rossi wishes he could put that genie back in the bottle while he continues development of his E-Cat, but it's too late now. Too many people are hoping for just the kind of the thing he's promising.

RaneesUm wrote:And I haven't seen any investor solicitations. Shouldn't they start hustling for victims already? Who is being scammed by this?

Defkalion Green Technologies has already received 300 to 400 million euros worth of private investments. They don't need to solicit investors; there are plenty of investors willing to take a chance that the E-Cat is the next big thing. I'm sure if they went public next week they would be besieged by small investors desperate to throw their cash at them. I wouldn't advise it, though, as in my opinion there is not enough information publicly available to allow an ordinary member of the public to do proper due diligence on DGT's products. DGT seems to agree, and as far as I know they will only be operating on the private investments they have received through October. That's fine with me. If they're bilking their investors, most of us will remain largely unaffected.

RaneesUm wrote:And if it is merely a monstrous hoax, why are all those physicists at the University of Bologna and other well-regarded European schools participating in it? It would be an instant career wrecker.

That's a very good question. Francesco Celani claims to have detected no gamma rays (above background?) before Rossi started the January 14th demo, with a noticeable increase (albeit not to a dangerous level) after the demo started. If it was just Rossi who was making these kind of claims that would be one thing, but when even supposedly skeptical scientists, who had no apparent reason to support Rossi, make such claims, Occam's razor would seem to support the idea that there is something real going on—in at least some of the demos.

RaneesUm wrote:The hoax or scam idea just doesn't seem believable. Frankly, nor does the available evidence.

Well, there you have it. For you (as for me) the quantum wave function hasn't yet collapsed. :P

dch24 wrote:I do think Focardi and all LENR research will be damaged a great deal by any such scam.

Indeed. One reason I think LENR researchers and advocates should approach this story with caution and objectivity. It plays into their desire for vindication, but the risks are high if the E-Cat story turns out badly.

Maui wrote:Wow. There was a reference to "Petroldragon" in that video clip that I didn't follow up with the first time I watched it. (I also hadn't really read much into Rossi's previous trouble with the law).

But look at this: Petroldragon

It really does seem like deja vu all over again, eh?

It certainly doesn't add to Rossi's credibility.

Maui wrote:Maybe the most appropriate bit:
At that time, no journalist, political scientist made a careful analysis of the real scope of the invention and the remaining challenges associated with it.

Well, there are a lot of eyes on the E-Cat. Between them all I have hope that most of the truth, whatever it may be, will be arrived at over time. Even Rossi and Defkalion appear to be cooperating with that hope for now. As always, we shall see what we shall see. The next things I'm looking forward to, besides Krivit's reports, are the announcement from the Piantelli group and anything that comes out of the University of Bologna E-Cat research or the testing of the Hyperion products by the Greek authorities.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

Giorgio
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Postby Giorgio » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:19 am

fusionfan wrote:If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

Regardless of the temperature, what Chris video proved is that the steam flow in Krivit video is not consistent with a flow of 7 Kg/h, nor with a flow of 4 Kg/h.

Joseph Chikva
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Postby Joseph Chikva » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:04 am

Giorgio wrote:
fusionfan wrote:If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

Regardless of the temperature, what Chris video proved is that the steam flow in Krivit video is not consistent with a flow of 7 Kg/h, nor with a flow of 4 Kg/h.

Till Chris video has proved did you wait for confirmation of Rossi's claims?
Dear Georgio, what video can prove? Flow should be measured and not estimated from monitor.
Who teach you to estimate hose's diameter by video in millimeter accuracy?
One person said - That is 15mm ID hose.
Second - No, 13 and I estimate steam exhaust velocity at ...m/s

Luzr
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Postby Luzr » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:47 am

Giorgio wrote:
fusionfan wrote:If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

Regardless of the temperature, what Chris video proved is that the steam flow in Krivit video is not consistent with a flow of 7 Kg/h, nor with a flow of 4 Kg/h.


Just question: Is not it possible that the length of the hose affects it?

One more thing: If e-cat is supposed to work as heater, is not it a bit impractical that it produces the steam?

And one suggestion: Perhaps Chris or somebody could produce his own version of "e-cat demonstration video" as null hypothesis. Just put watmetter into the input, then show all effects similar to what Rossi shows in Krivit video, only without "Ni-H reactor", just with resisitive heater.

chrismb
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:00 pm

Postby chrismb » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:59 am

Luzr wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
fusionfan wrote:If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

Regardless of the temperature, what Chris video proved is that the steam flow in Krivit video is not consistent with a flow of 7 Kg/h, nor with a flow of 4 Kg/h.


Just question: Is not it possible that the length of the hose affects it?

One more thing: If e-cat is supposed to work as heater, is not it a bit impractical that it produces the steam?

And one suggestion: Perhaps Chris or somebody could produce his own version of "e-cat demonstration video" as null hypothesis. Just put watmetter into the input, then show all effects similar to what Rossi shows in Krivit video, only without "Ni-H reactor", just with resisitive heater.

That was my plan, but the only 'qualitative' indicator we have of total flow rate of water is what visibly comes out of the hose. That's why the water content of the steam is sooo important - because if the E-cat is pushing out lots of water drops then it might well be pushing out 7kg/hr of H2O as Rossi claims, but significantly as water rather than steam.

chrismb
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Re: Steam flow

Postby chrismb » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:02 am

sparkyy0007 wrote:
chrismb wrote:
What is ridiculous is the measurement (supposedly) of JUST 100C at one end of a 4m pipe, yet Rossi claims it is still 100C and has lost no heat by the end of the pipe! A perfectly insulated pipe, eh!?



This is actually very true, the temperature at the end of the pipe will be 100C.

Quite so. Sorry, I was very sloppy there. Yes, heat will dissipate along the length of the pipe, the effect of condensation, and it may be maintained at 100C but in a different phase. The problematic area of debate comes in that if Rossi was not so adamant about 'no condensation' he could [should?] simply say 'Of course there will be condensation! That's why you don't see so much steam!'.

cg66
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:41 pm

Postby cg66 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:34 am

chrismb wrote:
Luzr wrote:
Giorgio wrote:
fusionfan wrote:If Rossi is using a 15 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 7 kg/h is consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

If Rossi is using a 13 mm ID hose, then a steam flow of 4.6 kg/h would be consistent with his jacket temperature measurement of 101 degrees C.

Regardless of the temperature, what Chris video proved is that the steam flow in Krivit video is not consistent with a flow of 7 Kg/h, nor with a flow of 4 Kg/h.


Just question: Is not it possible that the length of the hose affects it?

One more thing: If e-cat is supposed to work as heater, is not it a bit impractical that it produces the steam?

And one suggestion: Perhaps Chris or somebody could produce his own version of "e-cat demonstration video" as null hypothesis. Just put watmetter into the input, then show all effects similar to what Rossi shows in Krivit video, only without "Ni-H reactor", just with resisitive heater.

That was my plan, but the only 'qualitative' indicator we have of total flow rate of water is what visibly comes out of the hose. That's why the water content of the steam is sooo important - because if the E-cat is pushing out lots of water drops then it might well be pushing out 7kg/hr of H2O as Rossi claims, but significantly as water rather than steam.


chrismb - maybe you can use Lewan's numbers - we know by weight he was seeing 4.12kg/h go into the ECat - then you could use 345W from his measurements as well as 780W from the Krivit demo.


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