10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

ladajo wrote:Yes, but did it not come out that they have been running another unit at a factory over the last year for a test bed?
1) The patent claim they had (have?) a prototype built and installed in an EON factory (Via C.Ragazzi, 28 - Bondeno Ferrara, Italy) where the apparatus is used to heat the house and it is/was working 24/24H.
Edit: added quote from Painlord2K above
So they say.....

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

So they say.....
Yepp. [Sarcasm] And I have had a pink dragon living in my garage for the past year [/Sarcasm]
Means, people can say a lot and write even more. But this is just words, not proof of anything.

sbw
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Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:14 pm

Post by sbw »

Giorgio wrote:
sbw wrote:The description of the invention sounds very much like a solid-oxide fuel cell - the components are similar, the heating of the nickel catalyst and so on. Is invoking "cold fusion" just a bit of stage misdirection?
What type of process are you suggesting?
Regular chemical combustion using a hydrogen fuel cell and electrolyte.

Quite possibly a really nice, innovative, compact and efficient fuel cell with lots of potential, but still a fuel cell rather than fusion.

Which may explain the short demo - It would run out of fuel. The "picograms" thing just doesn't sound right.

Axil
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

I find it hard to believe that the fusion of hydrogen is occurring in the device. But fusion of Deuterium, also called heavy hydrogen, a stable isotope of hydrogen with a natural abundance in water (and the hydrogen derived from it) of approximately one atom in 6,400 of hydrogen is possible.

The generation of copper contamination in the nickel nano-powder is probably not involved in the primary energy production mechanism. The production of copper has been detected in the hydrogen packing of nickel without the production of heat.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Campar ... aceana.pdf

This is also true for any other contamination elements that have been found. Fusion may well be centered on deuterium producing helium and tritium as a byproduct.

The out gassing from the operation of the device should be done to determine if helium and tritium can be detected.

In order for this device to be sold, any production of tritium must be precluded. Sale of this device will not be allowed to proceed if it produces tritium.

On another note, heat in the range 400 to 700 K. is required to optimally pack hydrogen into the nickel grain structure. This is probably the reason for the use of resistive heating to start the reaction in the device.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Axil wrote:I find it hard to believe that the fusion of hydrogen is occurring in the device. But fusion of Deuterium... is possible.
Why?

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

But fusion of Deuterium, also called heavy hydrogen, a stable isotope of hydrogen with a natural abundance in water (and the hydrogen derived from it) of approximately one atom in 6,400 of hydrogen is possible.
I doubt it. There was no radiation. Any DD fusion would cause measureable radiation (via secondary reactions), no?
Sale of this device will not be allowed to proceed if it produces tritium.
Why?

happyjack27
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Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:27 pm

Post by happyjack27 »

Skipjack wrote:
But fusion of Deuterium, also called heavy hydrogen, a stable isotope of hydrogen with a natural abundance in water (and the hydrogen derived from it) of approximately one atom in 6,400 of hydrogen is possible.
I doubt it. There was no radiation. Any DD fusion would cause measureable radiation (via secondary reactions), no?
i believe i can answer these:

well yeah, in that it reduces mass it neccessarily releases energy. a.k.a "radiation" such as e.g. heat or vibration or light etc. we _want_ that. we _want_ radiation, that's the only way we can actually get any energy out of it. (radiate=outward) we would just much prefer the type that we can efficiently convert into electricity. oh, and it would be nice if it doesn't kill us in the process.

the question really is what _kind_ of radiation.

if by secondary reactions you're implying secondary _nuclear_ reactions of a different type (between different elements), well i'd have to say no, that is extremely unlikely, the isotopes are all very stable. there might be beta/alpha decays somewhere, but that would be part of the whole reaction as that would be inextricably tied to the chain reaction of the whole process. and so here we're just talking about branching ratios and what not, which is what we were doing to begin with.
Sale of this device will not be allowed to proceed if it produces tritium.
Why?
presumably because it's an unstable isotope and thus radioactive and thus there would be health concerns.

i would think it would decay by releasing a neutron, right? neutrons are generally considered bad.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

happyjack27 wrote:i would think it would decay by releasing a neutron, right? neutrons are generally considered bad.
It's a beta emitter. Decayed tritium is the source of 3He. That's why 3He is so rare and expensive.

Nik
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:14 pm
Location: UK

Demo only ran 20 minutes ??

Post by Nik »

Their Demo *only* ran 20 minutes ??

I don't like the sound of that: It is much too near the kWH output supportable by covert 'ordinary' technology...

I don't know much about metal catalysed 'hot' fuel cells but, IIRC, they may have been a rival to sodium/sulphur cells last time around...

No, they must do a 'resistive' load run for several hours at least, to be sure, to be sure...

happyjack27
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Post by happyjack27 »

chrismb wrote:
happyjack27 wrote:i would think it would decay by releasing a neutron, right? neutrons are generally considered bad.
It's a beta emitter. Decayed tritium is the source of 3He. That's why 3He is so rare and expensive.
ah, my bad. well then it's a money maker!

Axil
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

chrismb wrote:
Axil wrote:I find it hard to believe that the fusion of hydrogen is occurring in the device. But fusion of Deuterium... is possible.
Why?
I don’t see the transmutation of nickel into copper as fusion phenomena. It is a reverse Beta decay where the electron and the proton of a hydrogen atom is converted into a neutron mediated by the weak nuclear force (WNF) and that neutron is absorbed by the nickel atom to eventually form copper by more beta decays.

I think that this LENR transmutation process is mediated by the weak nuclear force. The indication of fission in the device also points to neutron production via the WNF. The presence of neutrons is an indicator of beta decay. Reverse Beta Decay (RBD) of hydrogen is not fusion even if it results in the transmutation of elements. Beta decay is not nearly as energetic as fission or fusion.

As I have stated before, I think that the Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC) mechanism in the metal crystal structure greatly amplifies the cross section of both the fusion of deuterium and the reverse Beta decay of the hydrogen; two separate processes. INHO, the simultaneous occurrence of both these processes: RBD and fusion is where the confusion springs.
Last edited by Axil on Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

93143
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Post by 93143 »

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Last edited by 93143 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

if by secondary reactions you're implying secondary _nuclear_ reactions of a different type (between different elements), well i'd have to say no, that is extremely unlikely, the isotopes are all very stable. there might be beta/alpha decays somewhere,
I was refering to D-T secondary reactions which AFAIK are due to the fusion products containing Tritium.
well yeah, in that it reduces mass it neccessarily releases energy. a.k.a "radiation" such as e.g. heat or vibration or light etc. we _want_ that. we _want_ radiation, that's the only way we can actually get any energy out of it. (radiate=outward) we would just much prefer the type that we can efficiently convert into electricity. oh, and it would be nice if it doesn't kill us in the process.
But a D-D fuion process would produce all sorts of radiation (some that you would probably like to avoid). Gamma rays, X-rays and fast neutrons, etc.
presumably because it's an unstable isotope and thus radioactive and thus there would be health concerns.
Well, I would expect the D-D reaction to produce lots of fast neutrons, so I would say that the Tritium decay would probably be the least of your concerns. I would be more worried about the fast neutrons created by the D-T side reactions (that I was referring to above).
That is unless I missunderstood something somewhere and those do not occur in such a device?

Axil
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:34 am

Post by Axil »

Skipjack wrote:
if by secondary reactions you're implying secondary _nuclear_ reactions of a different type (between different elements), well i'd have to say no, that is extremely unlikely, the isotopes are all very stable. there might be beta/alpha decays somewhere,
I was refering to D-T secondary reactions which AFAIK are due to the fusion products containing Tritium.
well yeah, in that it reduces mass it neccessarily releases energy. a.k.a "radiation" such as e.g. heat or vibration or light etc. we _want_ that. we _want_ radiation, that's the only way we can actually get any energy out of it. (radiate=outward) we would just much prefer the type that we can efficiently convert into electricity. oh, and it would be nice if it doesn't kill us in the process.
But a D-D fuion process would produce all sorts of radiation (some that you would probably like to avoid). Gamma rays, X-rays and fast neutrons, etc.
presumably because it's an unstable isotope and thus radioactive and thus there would be health concerns.
Well, I would expect the D-D reaction to produce lots of fast neutrons, so I would say that the Tritium decay would probably be the least of your concerns. I would be more worried about the fast neutrons created by the D-T side reactions (that I was referring to above).
That is unless I missunderstood something somewhere and those do not occur in such a device?
Highly mobile alpha and beta emitters are of concern because they can enter the body by ingestion or inhalation. Gammas can be shielded.


When these alpha and beta emitters are inside the body, they have greatly increase radiological effects on organ systems; up to 20 times more than gammas. In the case of tritium, it can be incorporated into the body where its remains and irradiates for an extended period.

Enginerd
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Post by Enginerd »

Axil wrote:When these alpha and beta emitters are inside the body, they have greatly increase radiological effects on organ systems; up to 20 times more than gammas. In the case of tritium, it can be incorporated into the body where its remains and irradiates for an extended period.
Exposure to this sort of radiation can kill you instantly...

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