10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Giorgio wrote:
ladajo wrote:I think my favorite bit in the exchange was at the start where he told Celani he was too prepared and too smart.
Indeed, it looked like there was some friction between the two, probably from past discussions...

ladajo wrote:It seemed he kept focused on the basic point that they put about 650W in and got about 12Kw out in water heat.
I would be interested to know the start and finish weights of the reactants/apparatus elements, as well getting Celani's spectrum survey done.
Assuming an out/inp of 20 there is anyhow a big difference with the previous experiments reported in the Rossi-Focard paper where out/inp COP was more than 200. This is an order of magnitude difference and makes me wonder a lot.....
I will send them now a request of clarification on this point and seeif they will reply.
ladajo wrote:It seems fair to say the Rossi kept saying that they don't why it is doing what it does. What bothered me was in his manner, it seemed almost like he could say that, but also knew some of what it wasn't doing (in a sense).
yes, my feeling was that he was behaving more like an used car salesman than a scientist.
Yes, very much so, good way to say it. Also, you are right, I watched again, and there does seem to be history unspoken between them. And it seems to preceed the invitation and acceptance mini-drama discussed.

I think if the analysis includes the apparatus precision weights of all components, that would be illuminating. Tom's point about duration is also interesting. So any feedback should probably include all three points: Precision weights, extended duration, and gamma spectrum survey.

Ivy Matt
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Post by Ivy Matt »

The most recent article seems even more damning, although I can't seem to find any English sources on the Petroldragon affair and don't trust my (or machine translation's) ability to decipher Italian, but I still can't get over Mr. Rossi's references in his patent application. "Fusogenic liposomes"? "Catalytic proteins"? What the heck?

icarus
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Post by icarus »

chrismb:
Could 62Ni act as some form of super-special nuclear catalyst, perhaps by the very virtue that it sits right on the turning-point of highest binding energy?
Like a resonant hysterisis about the bifurcation on the energy decay curve .... e.g. non-linear effects typically manifest at minima and maxima.

Torulf2
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Post by Torulf2 »

Bussard suggested a heavy metal catalysator for proton fusion for his ramjet. If I remember its right it was bismuth.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Torulf2 wrote:Bussard suggested a heavy metal catalysator for proton fusion for his ramjet. If I remember its right it was bismuth.
Can you find reference to that?
The only things we have found yet are a mention of a Bi-Cycle, meaning "two path cycle". Seems someone mis-read that as Bismuth Cycle. We just don't know if it was Dr. B that misread it. He has been "quoted" as having said Bismuth, but...

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Just thought of another possible mechanism.
I wrote:And what happens if it just sits there and vibrates like hell. Before TOO long, the inner electrons might react and pass the reaction energy outward to other electrons thru to other atoms and then you have heat. One of these may be the mechanism.
What happens if there is a "coulomb" collision between a proton and an excited 63Cu? Might that not carry off some of the energy? I hypothesize a situation where a violently vibrating nucleus deposits some of that vibrational energy to a proton. This is similar to the possibility of dual absorbsion without needing the second absorbsion, merely a second (and perhaps 3rd, 10th, and 500th) coulomb collision.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

In an unrelated side note, Art Carlson is still in the game. He has been having a discussion exchange over at the Wiki regarding wording issues.
Good to see he is still around. I am gathering he like all of us is in wait and see mode for April.

Return to topic now...

Axil
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Post by Axil »

Currently, the explanation I like the best for LENR is the Bose Einstein Condensate (BEC) mechanism.

See

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KimYEmixturesof.pdf

When hydrogen atoms are packed into the lattice of nickel crystal structure, a two species collective combined arrangement of thousands of both hydrogen and nickel atoms loss their individual identities and assume a singe quantum state described by a single quantum wave function. The cross section of fusion between the members of the BEC is expanded and increased by considering the total assemblage of atoms within the BEC.

Fusion can occur if the BEC selection rule is not violated as follows:

Selection Rules

For the BEC mechanism for LENR and transmutation processes, there are two selection rules:

(A) nuclear spin selection rule and (B) nuclear mass-charge selection rule. Selection rule (A) is exact while selection rule (B) is approximate.

See paper.

In the light of this BEC perspective, the binding energy of 62Ni relative to 63Cu really does not matter..

painlord2k
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Post by painlord2k »

I'm reading the original (italian) Patent linked here.

1) The patent claim they had (have?) a prototype built and installed in an EON factory (Via C.Ragazzi, 28 - Bondeno Ferrara, Italy) where the apparatus is used to heat the house and it is/was working 24/24H.

They claim the apparatus show that is useful to pulse the pressure of the hydrogen instead to keep it stable.

The apparatus use a resistor to start the reaction (heat the stuff). Apparently, from what a blogger present to the experiment say, they had problems with the experiment (resistor fail) so the heat production growth slowly for the first half hour.

Apparently, there is zinc inside the nickel powder after the reaction, zinc not present before: probably Ni+2H->Zn
There are other traces of elements in the used nickel, like Sulfur, Calcium Chlorine, Potassium. Apparently this could be an indication of some fission happening together with the fusion.

If it work, the language used in the patent point out that the right oscillation of the pressure of the gas, the right temperature of the chamber and the presence of some catalyst is needed.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Looks like the reduced energy COP has been a choice according Ing. Rossi.
Andrea Rossi
January 15th, 2011 at 4:29 PM

Dear Mr Giorgio:
You are right. The reason why now the K factor is lower is that we passed from experimental and extreme lab tests to an industrial product that has to be dealt with by normal operators, with total reliability. To make the reactors totally reliable and safe beyond any concern, we had to increase the margins of safety of an order of magnitude.
Good question, thank you.
Warm regards,
A.R.
Let's see Monday for the reports.

sbw
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Post by sbw »

The description of the invention sounds very much like a solid-oxide fuel cell - the components are similar, the heating of the nickel catalyst and so on. Is invoking "cold fusion" just a bit of stage misdirection?

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

sbw wrote:The description of the invention sounds very much like a solid-oxide fuel cell - the components are similar, the heating of the nickel catalyst and so on. Is invoking "cold fusion" just a bit of stage misdirection?
What type of process are you suggesting?


Meantime, website is offline:
Bandwidth Limit Exceeded
We will not be able to see the reports until they fix the issue I think.

Skipjack
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Post by Skipjack »

I just cant get around the issue that they turned the thing off after 20 minutes. Why? If this thing can run for a year, then why turn it off after only 15 minutes. And why does the reaction slow down so quickly after he turned off the valve, if it only uses picograms of H2?
It just all seems so odd.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Skipjack wrote:I just cant get around the issue that they turned the thing off after 20 minutes. Why? If this thing can run for a year, then why turn it off after only 15 minutes. And why does the reaction slow down so quickly after he turned off the valve, if it only uses picograms of H2?
It just all seems so odd.
Indeed I was also hoping that the demostration was going to last several hours, not few minutes.

All these points do not add credibility to the test.

ladajo
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Post by ladajo »

Yes, but did it not come out that they have been running another unit at a factory over the last year for a test bed?
1) The patent claim they had (have?) a prototype built and installed in an EON factory (Via C.Ragazzi, 28 - Bondeno Ferrara, Italy) where the apparatus is used to heat the house and it is/was working 24/24H.
Edit: added quote from Painlord2K above

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