Mach Effect progress

[williatw]

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/08/update ... field.html


From the comments section: Kurt9: Rumor has it White's experiments produced a null result. However, I would like to see data to indicate one way or another.

Brett_Bellmore "Trying to get the test setup to detect changes that are one
one-hundedth to one one thousands of the wavelength of light or less."

That, honestly, doesn't sound like a good sign to me. Weren't they previously expecting a change on the order of a *tenth* of a wavelength?

[GIThruster]

Originally the experiment was designed to be able to detect several orders magnitude beyond the disturbance they expected to generate. I'm not surprised they're blaming the null result on whatever they can come up with to keep the dream alive. This is how ZPF models survive all the evidence against--pathological science.

[williatw]

Originally the experiment was designed to be able to detect several orders magnitude beyond the disturbance they expected to generate. I'm not surprised they're blaming the null result on whatever they can come up with to keep the dream alive. This is how ZPF models survive all the evidence against--pathological science.

Unfortunately it seems to be beginning to look that way. As if their original results if any were "null" results, and that they are therefore recalibrating/changing their equipment to measure much lower level effects, hoping to get positive results. Hope I am wrong, too bad, but it is starting to look like EHT (Extended Heim Theory).

[kurt9]

My understanding is that White's warp experiment has nothing to do with quantum vacuum fluctuations and ZPE. Assuming the rumors are true, would not a null result suggests that space-time cannot be warped in this manner? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think this means that Woodward's ideas about wormholes would also not work, although the space drive application would still work (sub-light, of course).

On the other hand, White's experiment was about testing his low energy requirements for warping space. If so, Woodward's idea of making wormholes is still valid, but you need that Jupiter mass equivalent of negative energy in order to open up the wormhole.

My other question is, assuming that wormholes can be made, would it "punch" through to where you want it to go? Or would you simply get both entrances side by side in the lab and you have to physically transport the other entrance (by conventional methods) to where you want it. The second case definitely reduces the practical utility of wormholes for interstellar transport.

BTW, my favorite depiction of wormholes in SF is Peter Hamilton's "Commonwealth" novels (Pandora's Star, Judas Unchained, Void Trilogy) where the trains run through the wormholes, everyone is biologically immortal, and its mostly a free-market economy. Sounds good to me.

[GIThruster]

No, Sonny's warp experiment was indeed predicated upon the veracity of his QVF model, which is based on the HPR ZPF model of the late mid '90's. Failure of the experiment says nothing about using negative mass to warp spacetime, and hence doesn't come to the issues that arise from M-E theory. IN fact according to M-E theory we ought to see a null result from Sonny's experiment, because m-E theory says the vacuum is empty.

The part about altering the Alcubierre metric to get a lower negative energy requirement may yet still be true. I don't think that was touched by this experiment either.

[D Tibbets]

I would hesitate to call this pathological science. Apparently they designed an experiment to give a reasonable test. That the results were null is a scientific result. Disappointment might drive a desire to examine the assumptions and design carefully. While this may be excessive effort it is understandable and and not necessarily wrong. I would compare it to the recent neutrino faster than light story. The results were unexpected, and controversial but well respected. The efforts to reexamine the assumptions and design was not pathalogical science, and indeed reversed the results once carefully re examined. Another example is the efforts to detect gravitational waves. They have been completely fruitless (I think) and they have continually modified their assumptions and methods at a cost of many millions of dollars in the quest for this golden goose. Despite this, I doubt it is considered pathological science.

If they or others wish to refine tests , etc. further, then that is perfectly reasonable. On the flip side it does discourage investing heroic efforts towards that end, though gravitational wave detection efforts would seem to defy this.

Dan Tibbets

[GIThruster]

I agree, Dan. This particular episode in the ZPF drama is not in itself, an example of pathological science. What I intended to say and apparently failed to say; was that this is one more chapter in the pathological science that follows the ZPF debacle.

Any scientific experiment allows that one look at the results and adjust/modify theory and prediction and again look at the data. Readjusting the parameters of Sonny's experiment does not in itself qualify it as "pathological".

What does qualify ZPF indulgences as pathological is that the adherents of the model never answer their critics, never remark about how to look at contrarian data, never give answers to the obvious arguments against the ZPF model.

The arguments against the standard ZPF model are legion. They've been noted in the peer reviewed journals for decades, and argued about in places like Jim Woodward's e-mail list for many years. ZPF gives the wrong mass for protons. So lets have an answer! Yet no answer comes and those who don't hold the ZPF model are instead ostracized in the advanced propulsion community. This is the pathological science I referenced. This is NOT how real science is done and why we don't see the ZPF model generally accepted as a legitimate alternative in the physics community.

Point in fact, Sonny wanted to do his doctoral thesis in ZPF physics and was denied that opportunity, because those proposing ZPF physics can't manage to answer their critics. Instead of answering the objections, they use cheesy rhetoric to pretend they have answers they don't. This is in fact what makes ZPF theory "pathological"--because it ignores all objections and fails to answer them, but instead always moves on to the next version of the mistaken drama.

[kurt9]

I think the results of White's experiments puts to bed the ZPF ideas for good.

The problem I've always had with the QVF/ZPE stuff is that observation has never supported the calculations used to come up with the huge energy density predicted by these theories. Observation usually trumps theory and math.

The Casimir Effect was accurately measured in the mid-late 90's (I think 1997). This is what drove the ZPE proponents at that time.

[kurt9]

No, Sonny's warp experiment was indeed predicated upon the veracity of his QVF model, which is based on the HPR ZPF model of the late mid '90's. Failure of the experiment says nothing about using negative mass to warp spacetime, and hence doesn't come to the issues that arise from M-E theory. IN fact according to M-E theory we ought to see a null result from Sonny's experiment, because m-E theory says the vacuum is empty.

Thanks for the clarification.

The part about altering the Alcubierre metric to get a lower negative energy requirement may yet still be true. I don't think that was touched by this experiment either.

If true, could this be used to generate wormholes as well as warp drive?

[GIThruster]

I think so. What Sonny did with the Alcubierre metric was done by someone else with Notario's metric back in 2001, so this is not new work nor ground breaking. It is just a manipulation of the warp field generator's shape in order to get a smaller negative mass requirement. When we actually want to create a warp probe for example, then someone will go through Sonny's math and see that it holds up. Otherwise I think warp field engineering is going to have to wait until we have very strong evidence of a warp generator. Sonny was looking for that and didn't find it.

Honestly, if we had a chemist aboard we could put together the requirements for a large warp generator in short order. Thick films are not that difficult to assemble.

[kurt9]

Honestly, if we had a chemist aboard we could put together the requirements for a large warp generator in short order. Thick films are not that difficult to assemble.

Are you talking about making the electrostrictive/dielectric materials stack? What layer thickness are you considering.

[GIThruster]

For VHF and the lower UHF frequencies, thick films can be created through processes like screen printing, tape-casting, aerosol deposition, the sol-gel method, electrophoretic deposition and ink-jet printing. For the higher UHF and microwave frequencies one needs thin films and to resort to more expensive means such as chemical vapor deposition (which greatly limits what chemicals can be used since the process requires specific chemical affinities), various types of sputtering and especially molecular beam epitaxy. Some sputtering techniques are pretty simple. MBE requires extremely hard vacuum and is not especially commercial as it would force the cost of commercial thrusters very high.

So basically, if we had a chemist who could mix us some PMN and/or LSNO, then leverage any experience with any of these techniques above, we'd have the makings of a warp field generator that could be tested at a place like Eagleworks. I'm not saying this would be easy but it is doable on a budget. Given the many hundreds of various labs NASA runs and their work in ceramics to date, it's almost a sure thing that they have people and facilities for most of these methods, so if NASA takes an interest, they have the resources to see serious warp experiments start to take shape.

IMHO, he simplest way forward on warp is to sputter LSNO onto a Bragg Reflector and do extension studies with a powerful high speed scanning doppler interferometer that is capable of not only capturing the motion of the ceramic but compiling it for viewing in a simulator. I think the whole thing can be done right for less than $2 million, given you have people like Jim and Heidi who want to do those experiments. Certainly the cheapest way forward is for USG to invest in a lab at Fullerton and pay them to make the chemicals, etc. BUt absent those finances, one could stumble around without an vibrometer and simply work with UHF LSNO on an interferometry table. That would be decidedly cheaper and you can always put it on a doppler later--once you have confirmation of warp.

[GeeGee]

Guy on reddit claimed Woodward's notions "violate just about every fundamental principle we know of - conservation of energy, momentum, etc."

http://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/ ... th/cbwjqbv

I responded to him. Hopefully he has an interesting reply besides "it won't work" or "it obviously violates physical law X" without explanation.

[AcesHigh]

GI, can you please elaborate on how Sonny´s laser experiment to create a warp bubble depend on ZPF? And how ME effects would be able to fold spacetime (with the geometry described by Sonny, which you see to agree on)? Would ME do the same thing by creating negative energy/mass out of the mass fluctuations?

[GIThruster]

Aces,

Sonny's QVF model would predict that a DC field can perturb spacetime. He's trying to sell the notion that a DC field will under certain conditions promote what is necessary and sufficient for a warp field.

Bullshit.

What we know from Jim Woodward's work is that we aren't after producing large negative energies, such as in all the bullshit ZPF stuff, but rather, we need to be looking at producing large negative masses, as in M-E theory.

So Sonny's work only impinges upon Woodward's work. Woodward is making huge claims about how to produce very large negative masses, albeit for very short periods of time.

Long story short, Sonny's QVF model and Jim's M-E theory are not in accord. They make very different predictions and it is completely wrong to say that they are "opposite sides of the issue" as many ZPF adherents have said over the years.

Simple but weird: ZPF physics and M-E physics CANNOT both be correct. INERTIA comes from EITHER Mach's Principle: from gravity, OR the ZPF continuum.

All data to date says inertia is the consequence of gravity and thus that M-E theory is correct. ZPF theory and Sonny's QVF model are both incorrect.

Hope that helps.