Mach Effect progress

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

cuddihy wrote:I suggest you actually read Woodward's papers, they're actually quite well-written regardless of your conclusions of his math.
If only it were that simple. These papers appear to be based on initiating assumptions that are not supported within the body of the text. These papers appear to be test-examples for how to string together a sequence of non-sequitur fallacies.

For example, look at his last paper; http://physics.fullerton.edu/~jimw/JPC2012.pdf

Where did equation 1 come from? Magicked out of the air, having been previously evoked by Sciama, it seems. What other justification for equation 1 does Woodward give, other than 'Sciama said it' and it looks like an EM equation? Woodward even says that it is for 'an idealized set of circumstances' yet does not seek to disclose those, nor adds that caveat once the conclusion (based on that presumptive equation) has been arrived at.

Next is 'Mach's principle' wherein he claims phi/c^2=1 as some sort of given. Why would the 'scalar gravitational potential' always be the square of the speed of light? Is the 'scalar gravity potential' not 'g' here on earth, or else what is being discussed as 'scalar gravity potential'? Again, is this another assumption that has been evoked by Mach but without any tangible justification by Woodward (unless it is described poorly and relates to some other concept of 'gravitational potential' already proven elsewhere).

It's not good enough to say 'such-and-such suggested X' then go on to derive further equations and suggest they are proven. All it proves is that someone previously came up with an idea that, if it were true, would result in the conclusions obtained. Starting with an unproven presumption then proving it by its own consequences is the fallacy called petitio principii (begging the question).

The experiment is based on
"The obvious way to test for the presence of proper matter density fluctuations of the sort predicted in Equations
( 8 ) and (12) is to subject capacitors to large, rapid voltage fluctuations. Since capacitors store energy in dielectric
core lattice stresses as they are polarized, the condition that E0 vary in time is met as the ions in the lattice are
accelerated by the changing external electric field. If the amplitude of the proper energy density variation and its
first and second time derivatives are large enough, a detectable mass fluctuation should ensue. "
Why is this 'obvious'? There is no 'obvious' about it because electric and magnetic tensors in relativistic frames are variant - an electric field will be observed as a magnetic field in another frame and the trans-location of an object bearing up a given electric field (which carries some due electrical energy) is by no means an 'obvious' way to generate a mass fluctuation.

That being said, if 'mass fluctuations' could be generated within bounded accelerating frames then maybe there is a route through this maths to suggest a possible mechanism. So, next, one needs to look at whether 'mass fluctuations' can occur. The very essential notion of this, irrespective of any mathematical arguments that might arise in the paper, appears to be that the centre of mass of a closed system can be altered back and forth by the conversion of mass into energy, moving the energy to another part of the system, and then back again. To demonstrate that this does, indeed, result in a fluctuation of the CoM requires some further matters to be taken into account;
a) that energy, alone, does not generate its own gravitational field (that can contribute to 'equation 1', seeing as the whole basis of the equations has not accommodated electro-magnetic energy terms, even though he claims it is a “gravelectric force"),
b) that the energy contained within a sustained electric or magnetic field does not vary when the whole assembly containing that field undertakes a time-dependent displacement,
c) that a sustained electric or magnetic field (otherwise within an assembly containing that field) does not, itself, require a force to accelerate it,
d) that electrical and magnetic energy within a field is frame-invariant.

These may or may not be issues at all and may have solutions. However, this is not alluded to in the paper that you claim is one that should be read to 'avoid ignorance' and that is 'well-written'.

So the derivation of the equations is only substantiated if the basis of the founding equations is correct (and there is nothing that demonstrates they are, only that other people said it), this is the first fallacy, a sort of combined 'begging the question' and 'appeal to authority', whilst the latter issue of not dealing with accelerating electric fields is a fallacy of the 'complex question', in which the proposed experiment does not actually address whether its mechanism (which is an electromagnetic one) is influenced by the proposed mechanism but instead the non-EM derived equations are supposedly demonstrated.

The conclusions of the paper do not even seek to remind the reader that the whole edifice has 'an idealized set of circumstances' [undisclosed by the author] as a caveat to the first equation of the paper.

NONE of the above is a disproof of the idea, of course, because there may be answers that address each point. But the above IS a proof that the paper is not as educational and well-written as you claim, and that a casual reader has, as yet, no cause to be minded to accept the claims made. It is all for the experimenters to prove that an unbound object can be accelerated by these means, and claiming equations with unfounded starting assumptions is not the means to do it. chrismb, if he still posted here, would wish the experimenters well in their efforts as he has always done so, whilst remaining wholly sceptical (as they would likely expect him to).

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

also, if it's any consolation to entropy being "depressing", since physics constitutes a nonlinear dynamical system with both positive and negative lyapunov exponents - that is, since its capable of exhibiting chaos - there are thus both source and sinks of entropy.

the "heat death" idea was an unjustified extrapolation of an observation of a system in very particular conditions that are not natural throughout the universe, for a very brief time period. and as such it cannot come near to discrediting the math, which clearly shows that information constantly gets created and destroyed.

but is that less or more "depressing"? it still makes us mortals. but the alternative would make us statues.
So, in some interpretations entropy might then be reversible. If an M-E thruster hooked up to a flywheel does in fact reach an efficiency where it can generate power locally by acting on far-off matter, it might be a way to start adding more information to matter than it loses on a large scale. Maybe heat death doesn't happen.

However, the heat death theory still seems to be popular right now. So, say you still believe that heat death does happen. I suppose that if you think about this in the longest terms (which you really have to, since the thruster acts in part on reaction mass that may be from our current frame in the "future") then maybe the entropy books eventually balance too. If you accelerate the far-off universe even a bit, you increase entropy there, and hasten the moment when heat death happens (maybe only by fractions of picoseconds with one thruster, but possibly much more if you run galactic civilizations on M-E). You can keep avoiding heat death locally by pushing on distant matter up to the point where all the distant matter has dissipated down to heat death level, and then there's nothing left to push on. At that point you and your last remaining M-E devices experience heat death too, sooner than you would have done if you hadn't pushed the universe towards an earlier death.

In other words, maybe you can draw energy "the wrong way" thermodynamically because you're actually only doing so temporarily (even if "temporary" means borrowing energy you don't need to "pay back" for billions of years). You abide by entropy one of two ways: don't use M-E thrusters and have a bit less information in the present but a bit more in the future (delayed heat death), or more information in the present but less in the future (accelerated heat death).

We knew that accelerated expansion is the price for "tomorrow's momentum today," and since accelerated heat death would be the logical result of accelerated expansion, this is how the entropy books balance.

I don't find this proposed explanation overly convincing, however, I'm now satisfied that not only is there no over-unity situation in overall terms, but that going the apparent wrong way against entropy isn't necessarily a show-stopper either. Certainly it's a more elegant solution than invoking some sort of "drag" effect from something like the Higgs Field to prevent over-unity or decrease of entropy.

This makes me all the more curious to see results of M-E tests with better tailored/custom designed materials and significantly higher power levels which would, once and for all, either demonstrate thrust that is clearly not noise or show where the noise in these tests is coming from. If the M-E effect was demonstrated, it would drive research which could really solidify understanding of how not only inertia but thermodynamics and entropy work across different relativistic frames over very large scales of spacetime.

93143
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Post by 93143 »

chrismb wrote:Is the 'scalar gravity potential' not 'g' here on earth?
No, that's the gradient of the gravitational potential, and it's a vector. Not quite the same thing...
So, next, one needs to look at whether 'mass fluctuations' can occur. The very essential notion of this, irrespective of any mathematical arguments that might arise in the paper, appears to be that the centre of mass of a closed system can be altered back and forth by the conversion of mass into energy, moving the energy to another part of the system, and then back again.
No, mass-energy equivalence is not the mechanism here, and moving the CoM, while it may incidentally occur, is not part of the proposed operating principle.

The predicted mass fluctuations can be vastly greater than the E/c² of the applied fields, and in extreme cases the whole thing can go net negative.
So the derivation of the equations is only substantiated if the basis of the founding equations is correct (and there is nothing that demonstrates they are, only that other people said it), this is the first fallacy, a sort of combined 'begging the question' and 'appeal to authority'
Just about every theoretical science paper does this. You can't start every little update on your research with a derivation of Newton's Laws from first principles. This is why we have citations.
Last edited by 93143 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

chrismb wrote:These papers appear to be test-examples for how to string together a sequence of non-sequitur fallacies.
I'm sure it seems that way to anyone with only a 3rd grade level of reading comprehension.
Where did equation 1 come from? Magicked out of the air. . .
Maybe you ought to read the paper. The answer is perfectly obvious.
Next is 'Mach's principle' wherein he claims phi/c^2=1 as some sort of given.

Those are two different things. You're obviously in way over your head and don't understand anything about what you complain.
Why would the 'scalar gravitational potential' always be the square of the speed of light? Is the 'scalar gravity potential' not 'g' here on earth, or else what is being discussed as 'scalar gravity potential'?
Not at all. It's your inability to read for comprehension that is your problem. You're not even wrong here, chris; you're just oblivious.
It's not good enough to say 'such-and-such suggested X' then go on to derive further equations and suggest they are proven.
But that's not what he's done. This is just in your very small mind, chris; because you obviously want to pee on the leg of an elephant. How pathetic.
Why is this 'obvious'? There is no 'obvious' about it. . .
Well yeah it is obvious once you understand what he's saying, and you certainly do not.
The very essential notion of this, irrespective of any mathematical arguments that might arise in the paper, appears to be that the centre of mass of a closed system can be altered back and forth by the conversion of mass into energy. . .
Not even close. M-E theory has no resemblance to this charge. Nowhere is there any mass-energy conversion. You're making these obviously and stupidly wrong statements about M-E theory because you don't understand it in the least. Again, pathetic.

Seriously chris, it's plain you're an emotionally disturbed individual who can't manage at the adult table. You have promised multiple times to leave this forum and yet you always come back and embarrass yourself. Instead of working so hard to prove how wrong you can be about things you don't understand, why not spend that time wisely and get some therapy? You'll be much better off.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

CaptainBeowulf
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Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:35 am

Post by CaptainBeowulf »

When I said "entropy", I meant what the poster I was responding to seemed to mean by it - the principle of nondecrease of entropy, which I also referred to as the "entropy condition". Known in continuum mechanics as the Clausius-Duhem inequality, as I recall.
Yes, that's what I meant, and what I'm trying to come to grips with in the post above.

This gives me another opportunity to rephrase it: a M-E device generating power would allow a local decrease of entropy in the present, at the price of an increase in entropy of similar magnitude in the universe in the future. At the end of the universe, when you balance the books, the principle of nondecrease of entropy has held. Beings with M-E devices have managed to create periods of local decrease of entropy during the history of the universe, but in later periods entropy increases more rapidly, and ultimately there has been no "magic" to avoid decrease.

This isn't actually very different from what we do more conventionally today. At least at a superficial level, you could say that we decrease entropy locally when we take some sand and manufacture it into silicon processors, but to get the power to do that we need to increase entropy more rapidly in, say, a nuclear fuel rod in a reactor. M-E effect, if real, just takes these sort of accounting issues concerning the principle of nondecrease of entropy and spreads them across a much vaster scale of time and space.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

NONE of the above is a disproof of the idea, of course, because there may be answers that address each point. But the above IS a proof that the paper is not as educational and well-written as you claim, and that a casual reader has, as yet, no cause to be minded to accept the claims made.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

CaptainBeowulf wrote:So, in some interpretations entropy might then be reversible. If an M-E thruster hooked up to a flywheel does in fact reach an efficiency where it can generate power locally by acting on far-off matter, it might be a way to start adding more information to matter than it loses on a large scale. Maybe heat death doesn't happen.
There are many different kinds of systems that decrease entropy locally, at the expense of increasing it in a larger system, or a "global" system. All life does this for example. Crystal growth does this. There's no magic in decreasing entropy inside part of a system.

If there is some magic in M-E technology, then I'm betting it concerns the Wheeler-Feynmann Absorber theory. It's fascinating to me and anyone interested in the thermodynamic consequences of M-E theory would be interested in the primer found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler–Fe ... ber_theory

Just how this fits into M-E theory is explained in detail, and for this audience here at T-P (written for engineers) in the book expected on the shelves Dec. 24. There's still time to pre-order and get a discount:

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Starships- ... 1461456223
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Yes, I was actually just reading over a summary of Wheeler-Feynmann Absorber theory, and I'm becoming more convinced that, if M-E works, the time symmetry in this theory is what allows you to temporarily circumvent decrease of entropy. It's not magic, really, it's just displacement of the ultimate decrease of entropy to a different time/place.

Also, I suspect a number of us have ordered the book already. My curiosity got the better of me and I decided that it was worth the $35 or so.

Why? Well, Chris says:
NONE of the above is a disproof of the idea, of course, because there may be answers that address each point. But the above IS a proof that the paper is not as educational and well-written as you claim, and that a casual reader has, as yet, no cause to be minded to accept the claims made.
To which the best response is probably to reiterate 93143's comment that:
You can't start every little update on your research with a derivation of Newton's Laws from first principles. This is why we have citations.
Since Woodward's work deals with concepts which are in some cases not so well known, and which can also be counter-intuitive, most of us here are to some extent casual readers. I think the only way not to be would be to go and read his dissertation, followed by all his published work, in order to really see where his ideas came together and how he's pursued them. I hope that the book will bring all his work together in detail and answer/preempt a huge number of the more random and more frequently repeatedly addressed questions that come up in discussions about M-E. Well, we'll see.

GIThruster
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Post by GIThruster »

CaptainBeowulf wrote:Since Woodward's work deals with concepts which are in some cases not so well known, and which can also be counter-intuitive, most of us here are to some extent casual readers. I think the only way not to be would be to go and read his dissertation, followed by all his published work, in order to really see where his ideas came together and how he's pursued them. I hope that the book will bring all his work together in detail and answer/preempt a huge number of the more random and more frequently repeatedly addressed questions that come up in discussions about M-E.
That's exactly why he wrote it. As one of his readers I think I can say with assurance you'll be happy with the result. It doesn't dabble much in GR stuff intended for physicists. It merely cites the papers for those who want to follow such fine points. But it does carry the reader through point by point so he can see the big picture, and attack the topic from whatever vantage suits him. I'm very excited about the result. And too I should note that Jim has the benefit of teaching GR for 40 years. He's a very gifted and skilled communicator.

If I can tip my hand, I'll say what I think is at the heart of the matter. Jim makes a central argument that demonstrates how we know inertia comes from gravity. This is Mach's Principle. If this is correct, and I think he clearly demonstrates it is, then we have a way forward in physics. Everyone, simply everyone with an open mind, is going to jump on this issue. If Jim's argument obtains, then we need to accept Mach's Principle and work from there. The fact we have not done this the last 100 years, is reason enough that physics is in such a sorry state. Though Jim would NEVER say it about his own work, I think we are on a precipice of discovery every bit as monumental as with Maxwells equations. Just as we gained mastery over EM from Maxwell, we have the opportunity to gain mastery over inertia with Woodward's work. It's all very exciting to see come together.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

GIThruster wrote:There are many different kinds of systems that decrease entropy locally, at the expense of increasing it in a larger system, or a "global" system. All life does this for example. Crystal growth does this. There's no magic in decreasing entropy inside part of a system.
Of course, that is true. As per discussion regarding the source of the KE in propelled craft (and with the reverse cycle air con example given, if you bothered to actually read the post).

BUT - this theory claims to increase entropy IN THE WHOLE OF THE UNIVERSE because it is all based on the assumption of seeing the whole of the universe moving in respect of the inertial frame under consideration. The whole of the universe is not 'part of a system'. Entropy always increase FOR THE WHOLE OF THE UNIVERSE. That's why in the example of the 300MJ expended for 760MJ of KE, the 460MJ must have come from 'the rest of the universe', thus gross entropy of the universe would have claimed to have been decreased. Any hypothesised time-displacement of this still arrives at the same outcome, because whenever that entropy increase was caused to happen 'in', even if it was not the current moment, then it would still have had to have been (or will be!!!) an entropy decrease in the future.

This is not talking about a decrease of a part of a 'global' system. There is no 'global' system in this theory, there is just one 'universal' system, and its entropy decreases in the direction of the arrow of time.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

chrismb wrote:. . .thus gross entropy of the universe would have claimed to have been decreased.
No. The decrease in entropy is local to the M-E device. The increase in entropy is with respect to the rest of the universe. This is why I explained that M-E technology ought to cause an acceleration in the expansion of the universe. This is what Tom Mahood was talking about 15 years or so ago when he coined the phrase "tomorrow's momentum today" which still graces the door of the lab at Fullerton.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

GIThruster wrote:
Where did equation 1 come from? Magicked out of the air. . .
Maybe you ought to read the paper. The answer is perfectly obvious.
yes, it does look obvious - it looks obviously like someone has taken an EM equation (a dipole system) and said "hey, why not just juggle the terms and call it a 'gravelectric' equation so as to imply that it works for monopole fields too".

This isn't science, unless all the consequent conclusions drawn from that assumption are then shown to be physically realistic. If it is shown as such, some inference might then be made as to the legitimacy of the initial assumption.

That might have been done in some previous paper, but it is not supported by Woodward. It is only asserted [along with these 'undeclared' caveats].

To make such an assumption would be the same as assuming an electrostatic monopole could be created for a fusion source based on electric fields, instead of the gravity fields of a star. Clearly, the same equations cannot be 'obviously' used interchangeably between EM and gravity. It might be possible, but it needs more than Woodward has explained thus far, and, for sure, one would inevitably expect EM tensor terms to appear in the equation as well, and it is suspicious that they do not.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

GIThruster wrote:
chrismb wrote:. . .thus gross entropy of the universe would have claimed to have been decreased.
No. The decrease in entropy is local to the M-E device.
300MJ expended locally, and 760MJ entropy decrease locally. Where's the entropy increasing, if there is now a greater ordering of energy between the device and 'the-rest-of-universe'.

An increase of universal acceleration is a decrease of entropy, not an increase. It is towards a more ordered system of faster moving parts. Unless the fabric of matter itself is breaking apart as it does so, and there is no evidence that the nature of matter is changing.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

chrismb wrote:. . .it looks obviously like someone has taken an EM equation (a dipole system) and said "hey, why not just juggle the terms and call it a 'gravelectric' equation so as to imply that it works for monopole fields too".
Just who do you think you're kidding, chris? It's obvious from your own statements you haven't a clue and you want to blame that on Woodward, because in 5 minutes with one paper you have no idea what's going on? Had it occurred to you the problem is with you? For surely, those who did the peer review never had your complaints.
An increase of universal acceleration is a decrease of entropy. . .
Wrong. As per usual, wrong and so wrong one has to work hard not to laugh at you, chris.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

GIThruster wrote:As per usual, wrong and so wrong one has to work hard not to laugh at you
93143 and others can manage without these. Why can't you?
You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

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