Mach Effect progress

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

madsci wrote: Ok, I agree with all there, but these are specific to the particular setup Woodward is using in his experiments.
Agreed. Its hard for me to imagine conditions where you would not run into this trouble, but it is certainly possible. There are so many ways to skin this cat that one ought never say never. I would mention though, that you would need very well characterized materials. The caps used in all the MLT's to date were certainly not so characterized. One of the reasons Bruce Long and I chose to use the ALTAS cap material from Japan was because it had been characterized as flat to 500 Mhz. Bruce noted that there are excellent reasons to suspect the capacitance of the caps used by both Jim and Paul, where anything but flat, even to just a few dozen Khz. IMHO, it is not worth using advanced materials that have not been characterized, unless you're SURE you can do so quite easily. Bruce is an Ivy League PhD EE at the top of his field (much like Tom Clarke) and he never got round to characterizing the old caps from years past because that turns out to be a lot of work.
The absorber theory needs some specific conditions is order to be valid, as far as I understand. These conditions are met in the case of the electromagnetic fields.
Are they also met by the gravito-electromagnetic fields Woodward is using for his derivations ?
For me this is not at all clear.
It is very clear in the papers Jim has written the last 2 years and the book he's now writing. Might need to wait for it since it appears SPESIF has been cancelled this year.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Why's it been cancelled?

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

A decent network analyzer should do the job in seconds (probably minutes to hours to figure the meaning).

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/pro ... =eng&cc=US

You can rent them for a month at a time.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Betruger wrote:Why's it been cancelled?
No idea. I'll see if I can find out.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paulmarch
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Post by paulmarch »

MSimon wrote:A decent network analyzer should do the job in seconds (probably minutes to hours to figure the meaning).

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/pro ... =eng&cc=US

You can rent them for a month at a time.
You might also look here:

http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/vna2180.htm

For ~$1,500.00 this 0.1 to 181 MHz vector network analyzer can't be beat and has revealed much to me over the last few months of testing.

Best,
Paul March
Friendswood, TX

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

paulmarch wrote:
MSimon wrote:A decent network analyzer should do the job in seconds (probably minutes to hours to figure the meaning).

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/pro ... =eng&cc=US

You can rent them for a month at a time.
You might also look here:

http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/vna2180.htm

For ~$1,500.00 this 0.1 to 181 MHz vector network analyzer can't be beat and has revealed much to me over the last few months of testing.

Best,
Thanks Paul. I was just trying to give the general idea. That looks like a very slick instrument for "DC" as the Microwave boys like to say. Since that is the range you are working in now it looks like an excellent buy.

It also looks like it will do spectrum analysis (which I would expect). Very nice piece of hardware for ~$1,500.00 .
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

GeeGee
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Post by GeeGee »

There was a new comment in the mach effect forum at physicsforums.com

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread ... ost3672009

Apparently, this person worked with John G. Cramer on the "mach guitar"
The idea is that a the mass of the piezoelectric material changes with the square of the rate of change of the energy in the material. You can even make the mass go negative.

Note: This is a violation of conservation of energy. You can lift an arbitrarily large mass upwards in a gravitational field with an arbitrarily small amount of energy, as only the square of the change in energy wrt time causes the mass change. One can then remove the changing energy that is applied to the capacitor and "drop" the mass (say, with a string on a generator) and obtain a net positive energy output.

To test this effect of mass change, in 2009 I put a piezoelectric capacitor on a tuning fork and applied a voltage at the resonate frequency of the tuning fork + capacitor device. This would amplify the expected magnitude of the Woodward effect so it could be measured. The experimental design was such that I expected to see the fork vibrate if a changing mass was affected by gravity on the fork. I measured the amplitude of the tuning fork with an inductive sensor and I had worked out the parameters of the fork so I could tell with 2 digit precision what the driving force (the mass change under the force of gravity) was. A "naive" application of the Woodward equation would have been detected, tho' it was argued that the Woodward equation was a difference equation and I was doing it wrong.

After accounting for the piezoelectric effect itself and for effects of the earth's magnetic field by nulling them out, I could measure no change in mass of the capacitor.

I found no mass change. Zippo. Nada. Zilch.

This experiment was done for my master's project under the Guidance of Dr. John G. Cramer at the University of Washington. We did not publish because I more tests were required for verification of the null result. As Dr. Cramer was retiring and I was graduating, I didn't do more testing.

I would note that there is a math error in the derivation of the Woodward effect's theory. If one uses Sciama's result of (Phi+phi)/c^2 = -1/G, one cannot treat the speed of light as a constant and phi as a variable.

This experimental result could be disputed by noting that I was checking for a gravitational mass change and not an inertial mass change. The original experimental design (aka "Mach Guitar") checked for an inertial mass change. However, the original experiment couldn't be done as the mass of the capacitor significantly changed the resonate frequency of the Mach Guitar. I mathematically studied the experiment, and found that I needed a guitar "string" as thick as a tuning fork tine.

This experiment was difficult to construct. I had planned on repeating the experiment to do a statistical study of the results, and to try driving the fork to see if I could detect a change in INERTIAL mass, but personal issues and a lack of a High voltage amplifier prevented me from proceeding. I also was fairly confident in my initial result, and felt it was a bit like beating a dead horse.

Coolbrucelong
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Post by Coolbrucelong »

Hello guys
this is Bruce. I have a network analyzer. I think even with an analyzer we are not talking about a quick and fast measurement

my real problem is I am the only engineer in a tech start up
I m working crazy hours and only seeing my wife and two young kids on weekends

as gt thruster points out. Jim has huge engineering issues to master which take expert level knowledge in multiple areas acoustics, material properties, piezoelectric effects, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, ceramics to name a few.

Hard to make progress as a spare time, self funded effort

bruce

by the way. Thanks for the compliment but i am not an I y league type. Maybe something more in the line of ragweed instead of ivy league

:-)
Optimist: Glass is half full
Pessimist: Glass is half empty
Engineer: Someone made that glass twice
as large as it needs to be.

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

The idea is that a the mass of the piezoelectric material changes with the square of the rate of change of the energy in the material. You can even make the mass go negative.

Note: This is a violation of conservation of energy. You can lift an arbitrarily large mass upwards in a gravitational field with an arbitrarily small amount of energy, as only the square of the change in energy wrt time causes the mass change. One can then remove the changing energy that is applied to the capacitor and "drop" the mass (say, with a string on a generator) and obtain a net positive energy output.

To test this effect of mass change, in 2009 I put a piezoelectric capacitor on a tuning fork and applied a voltage at the resonate frequency of the tuning fork + capacitor device. This would amplify the expected magnitude of the Woodward effect so it could be measured. The experimental design was such that I expected to see the fork vibrate if a changing mass was affected by gravity on the fork. I measured the amplitude of the tuning fork with an inductive sensor and I had worked out the parameters of the fork so I could tell with 2 digit precision what the driving force (the mass change under the force of gravity) was. A "naive" application of the Woodward equation would have been detected, tho' it was argued that the Woodward equation was a difference equation and I was doing it wrong.

After accounting for the piezoelectric effect itself and for effects of the earth's magnetic field by nulling them out, I could measure no change in mass of the capacitor.

I found no mass change. Zippo. Nada. Zilch.

This experiment was done for my master's project under the Guidance of Dr. John G. Cramer at the University of Washington. We did not publish because I more tests were required for verification of the null result. As Dr. Cramer was retiring and I was graduating, I didn't do more testing.

I would note that there is a math error in the derivation of the Woodward effect's theory. If one uses Sciama's result of (Phi+phi)/c^2 = -1/G, one cannot treat the speed of light as a constant and phi as a variable.

This experimental result could be disputed by noting that I was checking for a gravitational mass change and not an inertial mass change. The original experimental design (aka "Mach Guitar") checked for an inertial mass change. However, the original experiment couldn't be done as the mass of the capacitor significantly changed the resonate frequency of the Mach Guitar. I mathematically studied the experiment, and found that I needed a guitar "string" as thick as a tuning fork tine.

This experiment was difficult to construct. I had planned on repeating the experiment to do a statistical study of the results, and to try driving the fork to see if I could detect a change in INERTIAL mass, but personal issues and a lack of a High voltage amplifier prevented me from proceeding. I also was fairly confident in my initial result, and felt it was a bit like beating a dead horse.
With criticisms like this, one wants to be fair, so lets start by recognizing that whomever wrote this, was certainly NOT current on M-E theory as of 2009. At least, this is how I would understand the handful of factual and conceptual errors involved that I'd like to correct.
The idea is that a the mass of the piezoelectric material changes with the square of the rate of change of the energy in the material. You can even make the mass go negative
This is part of the idea. The change in energy must be accompanied by a simultaneous acceleration relative to the distant stars to yield a Mach-Effect (ME) or transient mass fluctuation. It appears the writer does not currently appreciate this though, the piezo action in the ceramic could have been used to generate this acceleration, but we can't tell from the description of the experiment.
Note: This is a violation of conservation of energy. You can lift an arbitrarily large mass upwards in a gravitational field with an arbitrarily small amount of energy, as only the square of the change in energy wrt time causes the mass change.
This is a factual/conceptual error caused by the writer's neglect to account for the gravinertial contribution into the M-E device. Electricity is not the only form of energy in, and he has here failed to account for the fact the M-E device is a gravinertial transistor, not a transducer.
To test this effect of mass change, in 2009 I put a piezoelectric capacitor on a tuning fork and applied a voltage at the resonate frequency of the tuning fork + capacitor device. This would amplify the expected magnitude of the Woodward effect so it could be measured. The experimental design was such that I expected to see the fork vibrate if a changing mass was affected by gravity on the fork.
I trust rather than "amplify", what the writer here means is "transduce" the change in mass into a change in position that is then measured. If this accurately describes the experimental design this is a very poor design. First of all, the mass fluctuation is not equal in the positive and negative fluctuation--the negative fluctuation will always be larger, so one cannot hope to get sinusoidal motion in this way. The experiment is trying to cause the tuning fork to resonate, but it cannot resonate because it has different masses at different times. Poor conceptual design is probably the reason this experiment yielded a null result.
The experimental design was such that I expected to see the fork vibrate if a changing mass was affected by gravity on the fork. I measured the amplitude of the tuning fork with an inductive sensor and I had worked out the parameters of the fork so I could tell with 2 digit precision what the driving force (the mass change under the force of gravity) was.

Can't tell what "two digit precision" is but presuming this is percent of the unfluctuated mass, and that the experimenter was correct concerning what portion of the cap should be considered "active mass", given sufficient mass fluctuation one would hope you'd see it, were the motion sinusoidal.
A "naive" application of the Woodward equation would have been detected, tho' it was argued that the Woodward equation was a difference equation and I was doing it wrong.

Em, "it can be argued"? Is this serious? Is the experimenter claiming he doesn't know whether the experiment ought to work or not?
I would note that there is a math error in the derivation of the Woodward effect's theory. If one uses Sciama's result of (Phi+phi)/c^2 = -1/G, one cannot treat the speed of light as a constant and phi as a variable.

No. There is no error in the equation. If there were, the experimenter ought to have brought this to the attention of Woodward and this should have been dealt with through peer review, since the equation has passed peer review. Stating the equation is wrong AFTER an experiment hasn't worked and without handling the issue properly is not what ought to be acceptable in order to earn a degree. I will note that the writer apparently does not understand the difference between a "constant" and an "invariable" because he has not been trained in advanced field theory, and should not be indulging in critiquing physics he does not understand. the proper course was certainly to go to Woodward through Cramer and get this sorted out by those who can do the physics.
This experimental result could be disputed by noting that I was checking for a gravitational mass change and not an inertial mass change.

No really, it cannot. Woodward's theory relies upon EEP or Einstein's Equivalence Principle in its strong form, and asserts that there can be no way to ever tell the difference between gravitational and inertial mass. Anyone handling the theory ought to know this.

IMHO, since the experimenter did not complete the experiment, and claims he did not verify his own results, I am at odds to see not only how he is making any judgements about a "dead horse" but likewise, how he was awarded his masters. Sounds like he deserved an "incomplete".

If indeed the experiment was not performed sufficient to validate its own test results, there is no reason to presume it was performed correctly. I have dozens of questions in this regard. For instance, since the experimenter betrays no understanding of the need for bulk acceleration relative to the distant stars, I would first want to look at how the ceramic's piezo-action was set up on the tuning fork. Does the ceramic form a quarter wave or half wave resonator? If it is not set up to maximize displacement of the ceramic, the ceramic is not going to produce the required acceleration necessary to generate M-E. This, accompanied by several dozen other issues is reason enough to understand a null result.

In short, I see three reasons this setup as I understand it would not work. First is that the ceramic is not attached to a reaction mass that will force the ceramic to accelerate in one direction. Rather the opposite. Since the fork is intended to displace, the accelerations will likely be minimal and sum to zero. Second, if there were a mass fluctuation, because it is not sinusoidal and not equal in its positive and negative extensions, it would not be in phase with the natural resonance of any connected resonator. Third, since the experimenter doesn't demonstrate an understanding for the need for bulk acceleration, one wants to ask what sort of ceramic he used. Was it sintered to repress or enhance the piezo-action of the material? Woodward's own work from just 5 years ago neglected this issue, and the caps he chose were sintered to repress rather than enhance. Now we all know better, so just how old was this experiment and what sort of materials were used?

Given the need for bulk acceleration relative to the distant stars was extremely well understood by 2007, and this experimenter did his experiment in 2009, it reflects very poorly on the experimenter that he did not do a sufficient literature review before designing the experiment.

So in summary, it appears to me the experimenter did not understand his own experiment very well, did not complete his experiment, and did not publish his experiment because of these things. So why is he now writing about it in a public forum?

Final note is to wonder why this masters student was completely ignorant of the rotator work done in 2008, on precisely the same topic, that demonstrated conclusively the existence of M-E. Had the student done a literature review of the field, he would no doubt have designed around the need for bulk acceleration and he did not. In fact, had he been aware of the work at that time, he would no doubt have designed a replication of the rotator, which clearly demonstrated unrectified M-E in just the same way as he was after. Instead, he designed an experiment that cannot work because it does not provide for bulk acceleration.
Last edited by GIThruster on Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 9 times in total.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Coolbrucelong wrote:. . .but I am not an Ivy league type.
:-)
Yeah but lets call a spade a spade. Though Bruce isn't the "Ivy League Type", he is an Ivy League guy--the best of the best. He's a graduate of the Penn State PhD program. Anyone who wants to call his findings into question, really ought to have some very serious data in mind.

Bruce is "Top Shelf".
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

AcesHigh
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Post by AcesHigh »

GI Thruster: can you please write your elaborate response to the criticism, DIRECTLY on the Physics Forum thread?

GIThruster
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Post by GIThruster »

Aces, you have my permission to copy the above to the physics forum. I am currently past my measure concerning my involvements online. I can't add another forum to my schedule. As is, I don't read nearly so much as I'd like here.

I'd just like to point one last thing out as regards this uninformed experiment done at University of Washington for a Masters degree. It has always been understood that acceleration relative to the distant stars is a necessary requirement in order to generate M-E. Back during the MLT days, the need for this to be "bulk", meaning to include the entire ceramic and not just the mobile ion in the perovskite materials used, was not fully appreciated. since 2008 it has been understood conclusively especially as expressed by the "bulk acceleration conjecture" that the entire ceramic needs to undergo this acceleration. In the experiment mentioned, there is apparently no understanding whatsoever of the need for any sort of acceleration. I cannot understand how any experimenter could not understand the necessary requirements to produce the effect he was after.
"Courage is not just a virtue, but the form of every virtue at the testing point." C. S. Lewis

paulmarch
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Post by paulmarch »

GIThruster wrote:Aces, you have my permission to copy the above to the physics forum. I am currently past my measure concerning my involvements online. I can't add another forum to my schedule. As is, I don't read nearly so much as I'd like here.

I'd just like to point one last thing out as regards this uninformed experiment done at University of Washington for a Masters degree. It has always been understood that acceleration relative to the distant stars is a necessary requirement in order to generate M-E. Back during the MLT days, the need for this to be "bulk", meaning to include the entire ceramic and not just the mobile ion in the perovskite materials used, was not fully appreciated. since 2008 it has been understood conclusively especially as expressed by the "bulk acceleration conjecture" that the entire ceramic needs to undergo this acceleration. In the experiment mentioned, there is apparently no understanding whatsoever of the need for any sort of acceleration. I cannot understand how any experimenter could not understand the necessary requirements to produce the effect he was after.
GIThruster & Aceshigh:

A clarification: Woodward's SPESIF-2011 Stargate paper not only requires bulk acceleration relative to the distant stars of the energy storing dielectric to express the M-E, but also requires bulk acceleration in the vector direction of the applied E-field in the dP/dt energy storing dielectric. In other words, the M-E's predicted transient mass fluctuations can only be expressed under a very specific set of circumstances, (dv/dt & dv/dt direction, dP/dt and wave-front phasing), and if one does not supply ALL of these elements concurrently and in concert with each other, the expected M-E mass transient signal will NOT be expressed. And that assumes you are using a rotary experiment such as Woodward used in the 2008/2009 time period as GIThruster already noted. If you are trying to detect a unidirectional force from an M-E based thruster system as your M-E proof of principle test, the requirements list needed for success just got a lot longer than just using the rotary based experiments.

BTW, running any of these types of M-E experiments at hundreds or even thousands of Hz frequencies is just plain asking for failure due to the very small predicted mass fluctuations/forces generated at these low operating frequencies, dependent on the applied bulk acceleration & direction. Only Woodward’s attention to detail in his 2008/2009 rotary experiment and the application of up to 800 gees of bulk acceleration allowed him to demonstrate the M-E at his chosen operating frequency of 40.0 kHz. And that was only after he found out that the mundane voltage squared (V^2) electrostrictive signal also generated by the Y5U ceramic used in the experiment actually drives the generation of the M-E signal. The devil IS in the details…

Best,
Paul March
Friendswood, TX

AcesHigh
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Post by AcesHigh »

Gi and Paul, I posted your answers on Physics Forum.

Here:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread ... ost3675721

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Paul March answered to this:
You mean answered with?

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