Recovery.Gov Project Tracker

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:15 am

Happy,
I think you are misreading the contracting info. I do not believe that the 8.1 option has been activated yet. They (EMC2) has recieved a plus up in 8.0 money (to cover electron injection) as best I can tell.

If the 8.1 PB&J option is exercised, that means IMO that DD is a fully viable (and then some).

Ivy Matt · Post by **Ivy Matt** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:27 am

Betruger wrote:Has anyone seen or heard of what Dr Nebel's up to nowadays?

I don't know any specifics, but he will be participating in the 14th US-Japan workshop on Inertial-Electrostatic Confinement Fusion as a representative of Tibbar Technologies.

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:43 am

Ivy Matt wrote:
Betruger wrote:Has anyone seen or heard of what Dr Nebel's up to nowadays?
I don't know any specifics, but he will be participating in the 14th US-Japan workshop on Inertial-Electrostatic Confinement Fusion as a representative of Tibbar Technologies.

Title: Electrostatic Current Drive in Tokamaks

Speaker: Richard Nebel, Tibbar Technologies

Previous work[1,2] has shown that it is possible to lock and amplify m=1 modes from the boundary in an RFP by applying electrostatic fields. Furthermore, it is possible to do this without any magnetic field lines penetrating the boundary (i.e. the normal component of the magnetic field vanishes at the boundary). These can result in single-helicity RFP states which have good flux surfaces everywhere.[1,2]

More recent work using these same techniques has shown that it is possible to drive current in tokamaks with the same electrostatic techniques. These electrostatic studies have uncovered a new nonlinear MHD relaxation principle. This new principle states that if helical electrostatic fields are applied to a plasma, it tries to relax to a state where the magnetic field aligns with the electrodes. Thus, if an m=1, n=1 driving electrostatic field is applied at the boundary, the plasma tries to relax to a state where q ~ 1 everywhere even if no loop voltage is applied to the plasma. Thus, it is possible to operate a tokamak steady-state without out applying a loop voltage via ohmic heating coils (i.e. the OH coils are not required).

Furthermore, this principle not only works for the m=1, n=1 mode it also works for the m=1, n=2 mode. This results in a q ~ ½ plasma and suggests that ohmic ignition of tokamak reactors is possible. It is also possible to drive current with the m=2, n=1 mode which results in a reversed-shear discharge with q ~ 2. All of these are discharges evolve to steady-states suggesting that these solutions are universal attractors. All of the simulations are 3-D which indicates that they should also eliminate disruptions. The strong flow in the plasma (2%-10% of the Alfven speed) tends to keep the plasma in single helicity with good flux surfaces everywhere.

At Tibbar Technologies we are primarily interested in using this new MHD relaxation principle to build DC-DC electrical transformers. This technology is important for both photovoltaic power and wind power. We are presently building an experiment at Tibbar Technologies to test this new physics.

rcain · Post by **rcain** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:01 pm

good find chaps. quite a few familiar names presenting there. looking forward to any publications thereafter.

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:47 pm

http://ptolemy.ph.utexas.edu/Abstract/NebelRA.pdf

Electrostatic Mode Locking and Mode Suppression in RFPs and Tokamaks

R. A. Nebel, Tibbar Technologies, J. M. Finn, Los Alamos National Laboratory

In this paper we show that it is possible to lock and amplify m=1 modes from the boundary in an RFP by using electrostatic fields. Furthermore, it is possible to do this without any magnetic field lines penetrating the boundary (i.e. the normal component of the magnetic field vanishes at the boundary).

These can result in single-helicity states which have good flux surfaces everywhere. The key to forming these states is to drive one of the unstable RFP modes. For the unstable modes, perturbations from the boundary amplify into the interior (Resonant Field Amplification). This is consistent with the theory developed 20+ years ago that boundary perturbations can be described by the marginal ideal MHD equations.

We believe that these same ideas can be applied to suppressing modes as well, such as edge modes in Tokamaks. We derive the required phasings to implement this scheme. We also present a conceptual feedback control scheme for suppressing instabilities. This system consists of an array of electrostatic plates and radial magnetic field probes. This system forms an electrostatic smart shell which essentially uses the plasma to heal itself. This system eliminates the inductive losses and resistive timescale restrictions present in magnetic field systems.

Scary thought: Nebel solves the multi-billion $ Tokamak problem while Polywell languishes for lack of a few million $.

bennmann · Post by **bennmann** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:40 pm

Nebel solves the multi-billion $ Tokamak problem while Polywell languishes for lack of a few million $.

I definitely come here for the humor.

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:32 pm

[quote="DeltaV"]http://ptolemy.ph.utexas.edu/Abstract/NebelRA.pdf

[quote]
Could some of these principles be applied to polywell as well, and second point even if they made Tokamaks work they are still much to large to go on Ships and Boats. As I understand it anyway.

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:58 pm

paperburn1 wrote:Could some of these principles be applied to polywell as well, and second point even if they made Tokamaks work they are still much to large to go on Ships and Boats. As I understand it anyway.

Furthermore, it is possible to do this without any magnetic field lines penetrating the boundary (i.e. the normal component of the magnetic field vanishes at the boundary).

Depending on how "boundary" is defined, Polywell kinda depends on magnetic field lines being more-or-less normal to it at some points, for electron "recirculation".

But the idea of using an array of electric potential "actuators" on a Polywell plasma may have some merit.

At Tibbar Technologies we are primarily interested in using this new MHD relaxation principle to build DC-DC electrical transformers.

I wonder if this could be applied to downconversion from Polywell's megavolts. A useful process for a flying machine, if it can be done lightly.

TallDave · Post by **TallDave** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:52 pm

ladajo wrote:If the 8.1 PB&J option is exercised, that means IMO that DD is a fully viable (and then some).

I'm going to assume you mean "viable" in the sense they got at least a few watts of fusion from WB-8

Getting that to work in a reactor-sized machine... fusion is hard.

Glad to see you're still keeping a close eye on things. Hopefully in six months we'll know more. (I seem to keep saying that since about 2006 or so. OTOH, we're still here!)

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:15 pm

Thanks...I am hanging in there. No reasonable reason yet seen to give up. Good science, patient & thorough approach. I wish more projects were run like Polywell. Even if it does not play, I think it is fair to say that they have pushed the boundaries out on plasma science.

I am happy for them to keep making it better & smarter, and not finding reasons to say it won't work. That in itself is good.

And who knows, maybe within this year we will know the accuracy of

n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling

As far as power levels from WB8, it is hard to predict, even having run some numbers on it, as there are many knobs to consider, that we do not have data for. Fuel mix being one of the most prominent. We have no idea what "octane" they have tried or will...and that alone keeps us from understanding with any degree of accuracy what results the machine is capable of.

93143 · Post by **93143** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:01 pm

This technology is important for both photovoltaic power and wind power.

[*facepalm*]

DeltaV · Post by **DeltaV** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:49 pm

Miserable energy density, for sure. But he's probably thinking "farms".

viewtopic.php?t=3992

Robthebob · Post by **Robthebob** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:55 am

So I had a talk with my advising professor, Dr. Gilmore. He said the ball of plasma at the center has been observed. Streams of electrons leaving the center is still there.

This pinching effect (WB effect) he hasnt seen it, but then again his involvement with the project is limited.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:52 pm

When did he last get a peek?

happyjack27 · Post by **happyjack27** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:40 pm

ladajo wrote:When did he last get a peek?

pet a geek?! we're not animals! oh, wait...