New Paper from Martin Tajmar.

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Giorgio
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New Paper from Martin Tajmar.

Post by Giorgio »

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0911/0911.1033.pdf

Fiber-Optic-Gyroscope Measurements Close to Rotating Liquid Helium
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Abstract. We previously reported anomalous fiber-optic gyroscope signals observed above rotating rings at temperatures
close to liquid helium. Our results suggested that the liquid helium itself may be the source of our observed phenomenon.
We constructed a new cryostat experiment that allows rotating a large quantity of liquid helium together with a
superconducting niobium tube. The facility is built in such a way that our gyroscope can be placed directly in the center
of rotation along the axis; however, the cryostat is built around the gyroscope to allow measuring without interference of
helium liquid or gas. An anomalous signal was found of similar value compared to our previous measurements with a
changed sign. As this measurement was done at a different location (center position) with respect to our old setup (top
position), first hints for a possible field distribution of this phenomenon can be made. However, due to lower angular
velocities used in this new setup so far, our measurement resolution was close to three times the resolution of our
gyroscope and hence our data represent work in progress.
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TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Interesting.

For anyone that's followed Tajmar's work since the initial ESA findings, you have to wonder just what the hell has been going on. At first it was thought to be a property of superconductors.

And this just compounds the bizarreness. Liquid helium itself is generating the force?? Parity violations???
The parity violation on the other hand points to either a systematic effect that was not recognized so far or that the
origin of the effect is outside of the known four fundamental forces of nature.
Craziness.

chrismb
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Post by chrismb »

Cold and hot things attract each other. For reasons that do not appear well understood. Maybe this is playing a part.

DeltaV
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Post by DeltaV »

chrismb wrote:Cold and hot things attract each other. For reasons that do not appear well understood.
Reference?

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

I seem to recall hearing the theory that the liquid helium itself was acting as some sort of superconductor.

Have no idea how that would work, though.

IIRC some post on physorg regarding Tajmar's work was how I originally found my way to talk polywell (and commenced lurking before I signed up and posted).

And yeah, I read the Heim theory thread at physorg, although I don't lend it much credence... but at least it could be a basis for some good sci-fi...

CaptainBeowulf
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Post by CaptainBeowulf »

Oh, that actually seems to get referenced in this paper. On page 2:

"Some small part of our relatively large liquid helium volume may have been in the superfluid state due to thermal fluctuations. Chiao (1982) and Tajmar and de Matos (2003; 2005) proposed that rotating superfluid helium may be the source of large frame-dragging-like fields in order to explain its resistance to rotation similar to the magnetic fields developed by rotating superconductors that keep the Cooper-pairs at rest."

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

Indeed it looks like something is going on in their experiments, let's wait for the next paper where, hopefully, they will have more data and a better understanding of what is going on.

If it is connected to the liquid helium there will be a lot of people that will start to scratch their heads in search for a logical explanation.

hanelyp
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Post by hanelyp »

"...rotating superfluid helium may be the source of large frame-dragging-like fields..."

Sounds like a cheap longshot with high payoff if it somehow works out.

Nik
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Helium weirdness

Post by Nik »

I'm no expert on helium's assorted weirdnesses but, IIRC, one of its 'tricks' is for close-to-liquid vapour to behave more akin to a super-critical fluid, complete with vortices and other torque-transfer mechanisms...

And that's irrespective of weirdnesses like having He(3) and He(4) fluid circulating independently in opposite directions, or the wall-climbing, self-syphoning etc etc...

FWIW, I'd really, really like to see a lab-scale macro-manifestation of frame-dragging. As well as resolving long-standing physics arguments, it may open a way to understand quantum gravity.

Uh, macro-frame-dragging may also offer the remote possibility of a 'space drive', too. I don't care if it would only operate effectively in 'flatter space' beyond eg Neptune. It would still be a 'handle', however feeble, on the fabric of space...

Aero
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Post by Aero »

My concern is that one of those weird characteristics of super fluid Helium is directly causing the effect. For example, maybe super fluid helium's wall climbing nature mistakes the acceleration of the spin for gravity so it climbs the wall in the direction of acceleration. An effect such as this would certainly go in opposite directions (parity breaking?) with opposite directions of spin acceleration.

However, I, like so many others fervently hope that Tajmar has discovered a new, here-to-fore unknown gravitational anomaly.
Aero

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Aero,

My understanding is they are measuring a force exerted by the spinning fluid on a nearby measurement device, rather than a force on the spinning fluid. Unless I badly misunderstand them, I don't see how any rearrangement of the fluid would explain it.

MSimon
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Post by MSimon »

If liquid hydrogen is cold enough they might want to do experiments with that to eliminate the helium peculiarities.
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a profit.

Giorgio
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Post by Giorgio »

TallDave wrote:Aero,

My understanding is they are measuring a force exerted by the spinning fluid on a nearby measurement device, rather than a force on the spinning fluid.
That's correct.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

DeltaV wrote:
chrismb wrote:Cold and hot things attract each other. For reasons that do not appear well understood.
Reference?
I did a Google search on: Do Cold and hot things attract each other?

Interesting links, but I didn't see any direct answer.
I suspect that a hot object next to a cold object in air would attract each other due to convection of the hot and cold air (updraft and downdraft)between the objects creating a small vacuum and or vortex that could pull the objects together. Like a high voltage lifter, this would not work in a vacuum. Is there another mechanism that would work?

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

If cold spinning objects exert an additional force, that would be very odd.

Could even be useful, maybe.

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