Government Not Funding Research

PolyGirl · Post by **PolyGirl** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:40 am

Over on Slashdot they have started a topic called Why Isn't the US Government Funding Research?

Regards
Polygirl

Professor Science · Post by **Professor Science** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:11 pm

because until recently science was a dirty word in washington. Pretty simple really, when half the country thinks "educated" is an insult you're not gonna get a lot of elected officials progress science.

kmkramer · Post by **kmkramer** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:40 pm

Uhh, the research budget of the US is huge. Twice as large, as a percentage of GDP, than the next country. All the research I've done has been funded by either DoE, NSF or DoD.

The Stimulus package had $20 billion dollars of challenge grants through NIH.

Most politicians love research because it allows them to direct large amounts of money and high-tech jobs to their district.

kmkramer · Post by **kmkramer** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:49 pm

I should add that US science tries to be all things to all people. While there are certain synergies that creates, it needs someone to make sure there is focus in areas of vital national interest.

zbarlici · Post by **zbarlici** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:50 pm

kmkramer wrote:Uhh, the research budget of the US is huge. Twice as large, as a percentage of GDP, than the next country. All the research I've done has been funded by either DoE, NSF or DoD...

That may be true but i wonder how many hurdles the research money has to jump through before it gets to where it is needed. doesn`t matter if the research budget is twice the GDP when compared to res. grants of other nations, when you have the same amount of money being lost in red tape. The gov`t has to be downsized one way or another...

kmkramer · Post by **kmkramer** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:21 pm

zbarlici wrote:That may be true but i wonder how many hurdles the research money has to jump through before it gets to where it is needed. doesn`t matter if the research budget is twice the GDP when compared to res. grants of other nations, when you have the same amount of money being lost in red tape. The gov`t has to be downsized one way or another...

The red tape isn't all that much. The researcher's salaries are much better in the US, but that's how you get the best people.

However, its almost pure guess work steering the money in the right direction. You never know what's going to pan out, so they try to cover all the bases.

Professor Science · Post by **Professor Science** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:48 pm

kmkramer wrote: You never know what's going to pan out, so they try to cover all the bases.

And really, if you already new the results, why bother doing the research? of course, that's the only way to get a grant... my parents describe getting money in the sputnik days as "if it wasn't actively trying to regress science, you could get money". Pining doesn't behoove me, but I'd really like to see something like that again.

TDPerk · Post by **TDPerk** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:19 am

my parents describe getting money in the sputnik days as "if it wasn't actively trying to regress science, you could get money"

You mean regressing science by promoting the theory of Anthropomorphic Global Warming(TM), or pouring money down the known rat hole of fetal stem cell research?

Or insisting tokomaks are our best bet for fusion power?

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp

MirariNefas · Post by **MirariNefas** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:26 am

Fetal stem cell research? You mean with cord blood? Yeah, total waste. They should be funding embryonic stem cell research. Though that debate is evaporating.

zbarlici · Post by **zbarlici** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:17 am

The red tape isn't all that much. The researcher's salaries are much better in the US, but that's how you get the best people.

well its good to hear that.

Professor Science · Post by **Professor Science** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:14 pm

TDPerk wrote:You mean regressing science by promoting the theory of Anthropomorphic Global Warming(TM), or pouring money down the known rat hole of fetal stem cell research?

Or insisting tokomaks are our best bet for fusion power?

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp

No, like researching to find the point at which science books spontaneously combust or some such. Global warming research will help our understanding of climatology, stem cell research has already cured macular degeneration in rats, and tokamaks yield some interesting products in terms of plasma phyics and materials science. No venture into explaining the unknown is completely fruitless.

JLawson · Post by **JLawson** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:55 pm

Professor Science wrote: No venture into explaining the unknown is completely fruitless.

But some ventures bear more fruit, and faster, than others. Adult stem cell research is showing much more progress than embryonic, and although the tokamaks may be fun toys for the physicists to play with, the original concept behind them was for something that actually produced power for the masses, not jobs for PhDs. Yeah, I know it's tacky to sully sheer academic play with a suggestion that eventually something practical result from it, but reality bites like that.

That said - it pisses me off that we threw $50+ billion at GM and it still went belly up, and we're shaving $600 million off of NASA's budget of $4 bil this year. (I guess the theory is that you've got to economize somewhere... God knows it seems they're not economizing anywhere else.)

$4 billion budget for NASA? WTF? What would happen if we bumped that up to $10 bil/year for the next decade? What would we have at the end of that time? How many jobs would be created nationwide to support the endeavors, how much advancement would we have in the physical sciences? How many spinoffs would we see in the private sector? Heck, just have NASA hand out matching grants to the public sector for space research - I'm thinking we'd see both a massive increase in the space sciences AND achievements, AND more kids thinking engineering is an exciting, progressive career path.

Seems to me like the priorities in Washington are screwed - if they can throw money away they'll do it in a heartbeat, but anything which actually shows promise they'll cut funding to - and smile broadly while doing so.

Now - maybe things are at a point with the Polywell research that throwing too much money at it would snuff it, but with the trillions being sprayed around you'd hope that a few drops would land on this. Polywell seems to be an idea that can be proven (or disproven) relatively cheaply - it'd sure be nice to see some real funding come out of DC!

Art Carlson · Post by **Art Carlson** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:49 pm

JLawson wrote:Now - maybe things are at a point with the Polywell research that throwing too much money at it would snuff it, but with the trillions being sprayed around you'd hope that a few drops would land on this. Polywell seems to be an idea that can be proven (or disproven) relatively cheaply - it'd sure be nice to see some real funding come out of DC!

What are you bitching about? It looks like Nebel is getting the money he needs to "prove or disprove the polywell idea relatively cheaply". What more do you want? (Whether it was a good call to give him the money is something that none of us can judge, since all the data is being kept under wraps.)

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:05 pm

MirariNefas wrote:Fetal stem cell research? You mean with cord blood? Yeah, total waste. They should be funding embryonic stem cell research. Though that debate is evaporating.

You never know if something is going to work until you try it.

MSimon · Post by **MSimon** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:20 pm

Art Carlson wrote:What more do you want?

(Whether it was a good call to give him the money is something that none of us can judge, since all the data is being kept under wraps.)

Art,

N. Krall has always been interested in Dr. Bussard's work. Would his being on the Navy review panel satisfy you? Not that I have any idea one way or another who was involved.

What more do I want? Plans drawn up for a continuous operation machine at the 3T level. Maybe even the funds to do it. I have been doing some exploration in that area and I think it could be done for around $10 million.

Power supplies came in higher than I expected but other things came in lower. I learned that 4,000 psi concrete comes in at less than $100 per cubic yard delivered. I may be able to get 7 bare 1 m bore 3T SC magnet coils for $300K ea. if the magnetic uniformity spec is not too stringent. But the HV grid power supply is coming in at $1 a watt. I had hoped for 1/4 of that.