Actual Polywell News!

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Joseph Chikva
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by Joseph Chikva »

D Tibbets wrote:And of course in the Polywell thermalization of the fusion ions with the fuel ions is insignificant.
Of course insignificant?
At what number density? In which form energy of electrons injected by electron guns will be converted? If I recall correctly you mentioned desired number density of future Polywell as 10^22 m^-3. Can you separate spices at this number density with the help of electrostatic field forcing e.g. ions to oscillate around electron cloud? If to recall that debye length at this number density will have micrometers order of magnitude.
Are you sure that injected energy will be converted in harmonic motion energy and not in thermal?

D Tibbets
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by D Tibbets »

Robthebob wrote:wait what? how is skunks machine using diamagnetic effect to counteract B field in order to get it to a condition that increase electron confinement by reducing escaping through cusps?
In plasma experiments I have done the shape of the plasma is very similar to that of the Skunk Works plasma (once the permanent magnets I have used are adjusted for). In the experements and from the magnetic field illustration the shape of the plasma matches that in a opposing magnet mirror machine.
The advantage of inserting a third magnet in the center helps moderatly to greatly, depending on how you model the system.

If you use mathematical lines to represent your magnets the overall confinement gain is greater than 2. This is due to the inverse square law of electromagnetism. Cusps are defined by the magnetic field strength fall off past some level. Simple inverse law considerations implies that if you halve the distance between the magnets, then the field strength is 4 times greater. This means the line cusp width is 1/4th. There are two line cusps now though, so the net gain would be two. This simple comparison is not accurate though. The cusp walls are defined not only the inverse square law and the opposing field drop off which I think scales as the separation from the mid line of the cusp to the 2nd power to the 4th power as you get closer to the cusp center or else the separation to the 2nd power *up to 2 as the cusp is approached. I'm not sure which applies, but it is obvious that the B field drop off accelerates as the cusp midline is approached. The B field lines show this in the illustration (and many others also show this). The net effect from the magnet separation distance is the product of these two processes. That is why I used 2 as the minimum gain. The actual gain may be mildly to greatly greater (say as much as 3--8 fold gain).

This simple line modeling of the magnets is flawed though, just like it was flawed in the Polywell modeling. The magnets must have a real physical thickness (not an infinitely thin line) and this changes things considerably, just as in the WB6 considerations.

With real magnets the B field at the center of the magnet can is irrelevant. What is important is the magnetic field strength you can generate at the surface of the can.
Take an example. With line magnets you have 1 Tesla fields with a biconic cusp mirror machine where the magnet separation is 1 meter. The midline of the line cusp would be at 0.5 meters from either magnet, and the cusp walls would be defined as the field strength near this mid line, for simplification assume it is the midline. Thus using only the inverse square law, the cusp width would be a value, set here as 10 cm.

Adding a third opposing magnet in the center (one of the end magnets need to be flipped) halves the distance from the lines representing the magnets and this means the field strength would be four times as strong midway between the either pair of magnets.

Now consider real magnets. In this example the can thickness is 20 cm (radius of 10 cm). The magnet mid line separation of the end magnets remains the same at 1 meter, but now the can surface separation is 0.8 meters. Half of that is 0. 4 M and applying the inverse square law results in field strength close to the midline (my defined cusp border) as 1/0.16 instead of the 1/0.25 obtained by using the simplistic line magnet representation above.
This means the cusp would be ~ 6/4 or ~ 1.5 times smaller in width in the real system. This multiplied by the gain of the simple model results in a gain of ~ 6 instead of 4. Since there are now two line cusps the net gain would be 3 fold. This would be a minimum gain due to the deficiency of my B field drop off calculation (using only the inverse square law). By playing with the thickness of the magnet cans and and the separation of the mid line (mid plane) of the magnets, the line cusps could be made to be extreamly thin so that the losses here could approach or improve on the losses of the end point cusps (just as in the Polywell). There is a tradeoff though on the resultant central volume. What would be the best balance requires much more involved modeling.

An alternative is to make the magnet can surfaces closer together by increasing the width of the central magnet relative to the end magnets. There are probably limits, but my modeling suggests the the central magnet might have a minor radius can diameter of up to 1.5 to 2 times that of the end magnets. With appropriate strengths of the central and end magnets I think the central volume may be preserved (or at least not reduced as much) while the magnet separation is comparable to the few mm of the EB6 design.* If this is the case the losses could be considerably less as the 8 corner cusps of the Polywell would be equivalent to the two narrow cusps og the three ring design, while the point cusps are reduced from 6 to 2 (or even less if ring assemblies are stacked together. The net comparison is uncertain though as I don't know how the central volume would compare, and it is the ratio of the central reaction volume to the losses that is important.

I think though that the 3 ring design could at least approach the performance of the Polywell if not exceed it. It should at least significantly outperform the biconic opposed mirror machine. Other considerations such as direct conversion and focusing output for rocket thrust may also favor the three ring design.

*By varying the B field strengths of the end versus the central, the 3 ring arrangement could be adjusted for a central quasi spherical focus or to a hourglass shape along the line of symmetry (the horizontal x axis in the illustration) to a torus shape at a given radius from the axis of symmetry. What varying this condition at various time scales would do to the dynamics in the machine is anyone's guess, but it gives another knob to play with.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

D Tibbets
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by D Tibbets »

In the previous post the whole point is to bring the magnets closer together. But, the internal volume MUST also be maintained (or at least mostly maintained. You could bring the two end magnets of a biconic oppsoing magnet mirror machine closer together, even to the point where the width of the equatorial line cusp could be so much smaller than the end point cusps that the product of the line cusp's width and circumfrence could be less than the loss area of the point cusp. But, the volume decreases proportionatly, and fusion yield not only depends on the density, temperature and cross section, but also on the volume. If you decrease the line cusp losses but reduce the reaction volume a comparable amount you are spinning your wheels and have no net gain.

The Polywell essentially narrows the line cusps (now two of them) by interposing a third magnet assembly between the end magnets which are maintained at their original separation and this results in the confinement gain without the volume depletion penalty.

If you explode a Polywell into a 2 dimensional representation (like a 2 D representation of a globe) and assign the two line cusps to the end magnets, you end up with a picture of two spiky line cusps and a string of 4 individual magnets making up the central interposed magnet. This arrangement makes for a symmetrical arrangement. The details of the cusps are different for a three ring arrangement, but the overall effects are very similar.

The perhaps telling differency may be that the B field polarity is different , not all in one direction, but adjacent field polarity remains opposing. This might have confounding consequences, but that Skunk Works (my interpretation) has had success with this arrangement would imply that this is not a show stopper.

Why Bussard did not recognize this similarity is uncertain. Pure speculation is that his modeling of the magnets as mathematical lines may have skewed his view that the three ring arrangement was an improvement but minor compared to the Polywell design. The consequences for the Polywell was that his imaginary magnets touched, so that the corner cusps were not continuous and so could be considered as point cusps. With WB 6 where the error of this modeling was appreciated, the consequences was that he had to allow for separation due to ExB drift and gyro radius issues. Now the corner cusps were continuous and more consistent with line cusps (don't complicate the issue by considering nubs/ standoffs). Still though, the paradyne shift did not effect the performance much (if any) so that the corner cusps were close enough to point cusp behavior that the description was still workable.

Note that the three ring magnet configuration can have the same average separation as the Polywell where the magnets approach the closest, so recirculation considerations are similar.

Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

KitemanSA
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by KitemanSA »

The only picture I recall was described in the article as a physical phenomenon test chamber, not the unit itself.

Skipjack
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by Skipjack »

Ok, so I had not seen the second magnet in the picture until Dan had me look again. Now that I look again, I can sorta make it out to the far right of that little view hole. I always assumed that there was more than one magnet. I thought two, but Dans theory of three makes sense too.

rcain
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by rcain »

... 10 years pass ...

spacex
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by spacex »

So, can anyone summarize the actual current state of polywell research. I'm new to this topic. Is there current funded research? Are there any clues on whether the polywell fusion concept DOES work? Why is there no intrest from other physicists? I've once asked a quantum physics prof on a univerity about polywell, he never even heard of it. Do we KNOW somthing about the biggest contributors to losses in the polywell and whether we can resolve them. Or is this polywell approach just a better Fusor? Thank you so much, if anyone takes the time to answer. :wink:

Edit: D Tibbets, thank you for the post, very interesting!

JohnP
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by JohnP »

spacex wrote:So, can anyone summarize the actual current state of polywell research. I'm new to this topic. Is there current funded research? Are there any clues on whether the polywell fusion concept DOES work? Why is there no intrest from other physicists? I've once asked a quantum physics prof on a univerity about polywell, he never even heard of it. Do we KNOW somthing about the biggest contributors to losses in the polywell and whether we can resolve them. Or is this polywell approach just a better Fusor? Thank you so much, if anyone takes the time to answer. :wink:

Edit: D Tibbets, thank you for the post, very interesting!
There is research currently funded by the Navy at the rate of several million dollars per year. Other, smaller projects have also been undertaken by a university in Australia and private individuals on a shoestring basis.

Clues to research are scant, but the Navy could have shut the project down at any time over the past several years if it looked like a dog.

Polywell *is* a better fusor... a gridless one that has a chance of passing break-even.

Polywell is funded at low levels, run pretty much in secret... they do not have the PR that ITER has, for example, or even the Livermore Laser thing. It's a tantalyzing concept yet to be proven in a working, practical sense. It had the benefit of the backing of the late Dr Robert Bussard, a well-known leader in fusion research.

Over the past several years, the project has flown very much under the radar, ostensibly to avoid political and funding conflicts.

ladajo
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by ladajo »

What he said.

I would also posit that whatevers happens next with navy funding, which is not "secret", for Polywell is going to be the clue. The team has now had enough time and funding to prove out and sufficiently understand the device IMO. What the navy lines up (or not) for move ahead funding is the tell. If they decide to trickle or kill it, to me that says there are issues that are not understood, or not fixable on a useful cost and timeline. If they go "big" (what is that exactly??? Debatable for sure.), then that means it is successful.

Next step for EMC2?
Pick one:
1.) Go big D-D.
2.) Test small PB&J B11 unit, then go big PB&J if feasable, or go big D-D if not.
3.) Go home.

When?
I say this winter.
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

spacex
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by spacex »

Thanks for the reply!

"Clues to research are scant, but the Navy could have shut the project down at any time over the past several years if it looked like a dog."
Your logic makes sense. The funding would have been cut a long time ago if the theory of break even would'nt be consistent with experiments. Another approach that we underfund to make way for a concept (ITER) that will likely work, but will never have a real "use" (power plant, spacecraft propulsion).

"Polywell *is* a better fusor... a gridless one that has a chance of passing break-even."
This directly implies that we could use the polywell to replace expensive research reactors (for neutron flux). Medicine could be another use. So even If we didnt reach the break-even, this could have a great value.

"Polywell is funded at low levels, run pretty much in secret... they do not have the PR that ITER has, for example, or even the Livermore Laser thing. It's a tantalyzing concept yet to be proven in a working, practical sense. It had the benefit of the backing of the late Dr Robert Bussard, a well-known leader in fusion research."
He claimed we could build a reactor for 400M. I was so sad when he died. I'm sure that the polywell will be renamed Bussard nuclear reactor in his honour, (once we find a use for polywell).

Well, all we can do is wait and study plasma physics for now. :)
Hopefully the NAVY doesnt cut funding (only due to budgetcuts).

edit: "I say this winter." agree, the project has an official completion date of ~september i think

Betruger
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by Betruger »

You can do anything you want with laws except make Americans obey them. | What I want to do is to look up S. . . . I call him the Schadenfreudean Man.

ladajo
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by ladajo »

I don't think we ever reached an agreement...
The development of atomic power, though it could confer unimaginable blessings on mankind, is something that is dreaded by the owners of coal mines and oil wells. (Hazlitt)
What I want to do is to look up C. . . . I call him the Forgotten Man. (Sumner)

spacex
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by spacex »

May I just ask one more question?
Wasn't the official polywell homepage emc2fusion.org? The site seem to have closed operations. Did you know that? The last time I checked the page it was online.

EDIT:
the site is still registered:

Created on: 15-Mar-07
Expires on: 15-Mar-15
Last Updated on: 21-Mar-13

Registrant:
EMC2 Fusion Development Corporation

PO Box 5943
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87502
United States

hanelyp
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by hanelyp »

http://emc2fusion.org/ is currently "parked" by a registrar.
The daylight is uncomfortably bright for eyes so long in the dark.

KitemanSA
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Re: Actual Polywell News!

Post by KitemanSA »

spacex wrote:May I just ask one more question?
Wasn't the official polywell homepage emc2fusion.org? The site seem to have closed operations. Did you know that? The last time I checked the page it was online.
No. EMC2FDC was a not-for-profit group set up to obtain tax exempt funds for EMC2. The EMC2 folks ran it but it was technically separate. While it was up, there was a contact link to Nebel's email at EMC2.com (IIRC).

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