10KW LENR Demonstrator?

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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DancingFool
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Post by DancingFool »

seedload wrote:"also"? What else is he wrong about? Is he wrong that only NI62 and NI64 'react"?
Yes. They don't.
Is he wrong that he has a fully formulated theory?
Yes. He doesn't.
Rossi is wrong about what is in his own ash?
Yes. The samples he gave Kullander are intensely unlikely to come from his claimed process.
Is he wrong on radiation?
Yes. He claims anisotropy where none can reasonably exist. And he claims lack of radiation where his theory says there must be some.
Is he wrong on regulation?
Dunno. If by regulation, you mean, "Has he satisfied all appropriate regulatory agencies?", I don't believe it for a moment.
Is he wrong on production?
He never produced 300+ modules in the US, that's for sure.
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he strafed the lifeboats.

Axil
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Post by Axil »

seedload wrote:
Axil wrote:Rossi is wrong about zinc also, It has been found in the ash of both Piantelli and Rossi.
"also"? What else is he wrong about? Is he wrong that only NI62 and NI64 'react"? Is he wrong that he has a fully formulated theory? Rossi is wrong about what is in his own ash? Is he wrong on radiation? Is he wrong on regulation? Is he wrong on production?
Rossi contradicts himself on occasion. This makes Rossi reading very hard.

dkfenger
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Post by dkfenger »

seedload wrote:
dkfenger wrote: If Ni62 and Ni64 have much higher reaction probability than other isotopes, then enriching for them (even modestly - say 3x their natural abundance) should produce a proportional increase in the reaction rate for a given amount of nickel in the reactor.
Or just use three times as much abundant nickel and skip the super expensive (or super miraculous) isotopic enrichment.
Or do both, and get a 9x multiplier? I don't know what would constrain the amount of nickel one would put inside the reactor, but once that constraint is reached (and assuming the size is otherwise fixed), enriching for higher activity seems a logical step to increase throughput.

I will admit I don't know how hard it is to isotopically enrich nickel. Other than toxicity, is there some reason using the Mond process to gasify nickel then gas centrifuging it wouldn't work? Ni62 + (CO)4 is 2.35% heavier than Ni58 + (CO)4.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

Axil wrote:Rossi is wrong about zinc also, It has been found in the ash of both Piantelli and Rossi.
Link for the Rossi "zinc"?

Axil
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Post by Axil »

KitemanSA wrote:
Axil wrote:Rossi is wrong about zinc also, It has been found in the ash of both Piantelli and Rossi.
Link for the Rossi "zinc"?
If memory serves, his patent.

DancingFool
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Post by DancingFool »

KitemanSA wrote:
Axil wrote:Rossi is wrong about zinc also, It has been found in the ash of both Piantelli and Rossi.
Link for the Rossi "zinc"?
Rossi's patent application. SEM display shows zinc and copper at equal levels.

Of course, the application shows the composition of the nickel "ash", but not the composition of the unused nickel powder, so the zinc could just be an impurity.

Characteristically shoddy work.
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he strafed the lifeboats.

Axil
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Post by Axil »

DancingFool wrote:
KitemanSA wrote:
Axil wrote:Rossi is wrong about zinc also, It has been found in the ash of both Piantelli and Rossi.
Link for the Rossi "zinc"?
Rossi's patent application. SEM display shows zinc and copper at equal levels.

Of course, the application shows the composition of the nickel "ash", but not the composition of the unused nickel powder, so the zinc could just be an impurity.

Characteristically shoddy work.
Sometime ago, Rossi said that he did not use zinc in his powder. There was an old post back in these pages about it.

D Tibbets
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Post by D Tibbets »

DancingFool wrote:
D Tibbets wrote:DancingFool, you are reading between the lines too much. Why would the start up of the reactor be unshielded?
DT, I'm sorry, but you've lost me. Could you please quote the statment you're referring to?
I think I misread your comment. When you said little radiation due to shielding while the machine was ruing, I read between the lines to imply you thought the machine was unshielded when it was turned on.
...
I have to disagree with you there. Since gamma radiation propagates line of sight, it's just a matter of geometry. Shielding can be in segments, at differing distances from the source, as long as all 4 pi steradians are blocked.
A failure to communicate. This is what I was trying to say, straight line propagation of the radiation. But the lead shielding does not protect all possible straight line exits from the can (remember that much of the volume under the lead is thermal ' cotton like' thermal insulation. The lead is a layer outside this. I doubt the straight paths to the valves, power cords, etc are not all shiielded (they are not covered by the lead tape). There would be vectors where the gamma radiation could escape (this assumes the lead shielding is actually needed at all). Both a safety and regulatory no,- no.

Assuming there is ~ 13 kg of lead, spread over ~ 50 cm length of pipe with an radius of ~ 20 cm results in a surface area of ~ 50 cm * (20cm * 20 cm* 2 * pi) = ~ 2,000 cm^2. Estimating the lead density at ~ 14 g/ cm^3 results in a volume of lead of ~ 930 cm^3. That spread over the volume of the device covered by the lead results in ~ 0.5 cm of lead pe cm^2. That is a little less than 1/4th of an inch. That is not much lead to stope a whole lot of gamma radiation. Even at x-ray levels of ~ 30-80 KeV in a Medical X-ray room, they generally use ~ 1/8th lead in the walls and doors, etc. This by no means stops all of the stray radiation from the lead lined x-ray tube, just enough that the workers cumulative exposures do not exceed safety limits. AND this is with power outputs of merely a few hundred Watts or less (a chest x-ray may be at 50,000 V with ~ 50-1000 milliamps (I can't remember) for perhaps a 10th of a second.

The gamma ray flux from the Rossi device would be much greater, and the duration would be much greater. This makes me think that the claim that the lead shielding is actually protecting against a claimed gamma ray output is a joke!

The only out I can see is if the gammas have an energy well below 10 - 20 KeV (even that may be to0 high) or any claimed nuclear reactions that iare occurring only produces gammas in an exceedingly rare branch reaction (like 1/ 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000th ratio). But, if proton capture is the claimed reaction, that would eliminate any neutron capture with subsequent beta decay. I'm not sure of the mechanics of proton capture, except adding a proton, or neutron to Nickel 62 is generally endothermic.*

And, if neutron capture is presented as the initiating step for the transmutation to copper, where the heck did this free neutron come from?


* I have repeatedly struggled to explain this (often very poorly), but haven't succeeded, at least with some.
If you take a collection of ~ 63 free nucleons and combine them, then of course a lot of energy will come out. But if you add one nucleon, especially a proton, to Ni62 the energy balance is negative. Ni62 is the high water mark. You cannot pack a nucleus tighter, and that is what the thermal/ kinetic energy comes from. There are possibly combinations of smaller nuclei that could still release energy with a product past Ni62, but these are rare reactions and contrary to the Rossi's claims.



Dan Tibbets
To error is human... and I'm very human.

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

seedload wrote:
DancingFool wrote: No. "must enhance the reaction because"? Talk about speculation based on ignorance. Rossi has always maintained that the process works by proton capture and subsequent (fast) decay. This claim goes all the way back to his patent application. Ni58 would transmute to Cu59, and _that_ has a half-life of 7400 years. And that would be really embarrasing. If Ni58 "doesn't work" (Rossi's words) in the sense that it doesn't transmute, then there would be no need to eliminate it from the reactor powder.
Exactly.

Rossi claims that ONLY NI62 and NI64 react. Yet, for some unexplained reason, he also claims that he eliminates NI58 and enhances for NI62 and NI64. Why? Probably because he originally made these claims while answering questions regarding the copper isotopic ratio of the ash. He was trying to explain the fact that the copper in the ash had a natural ratio that can't be explained (by simple math) using a natural isotopic ratio of Nickel. So, he had to explain that he changed the ratio of the Nickel.

Basically, he started with the only NI62 and NI64 react stuff to explain the stable copper output, but then had to add the enrichment stuff to explain the copper ratios. In my opinion, he got caught.

And, in the process, he is now left claiming that only NI62 and NI64 react, that NI58 does not react, and that for some reason, he depletes the NI58 anyway.

This exchange and the miraculous claim of cheap enrichment/depleting is the day that I changed from highly skeptical to a probability approaching zero.
Good summary. It is very noticable reading Rossi's blog that tech information only comes out reactively as required to explain away points raised by others. So it is not surprising the sum total appears disjointed.

Observing this (I was interested, so read the blog a little) was for me an initial key indicator that Rossi was not to be trusted on any technical matter. Of course the ash isotopic composition is scientifically one of the most glaring anomalies, so it is not surprising Rossi's explanations are glaringly inconsistent.

cg66
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Post by cg66 »

Hmmm Brillouin getting Los Alamos to replicate their work. This could make this circus more interesting....

http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011 ... ses-water/

Betruger
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Post by Betruger »

Anyone know what the funding ballpark is for this replication?

tomclarke
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Post by tomclarke »

cg66 wrote:Hmmm Brillouin getting Los Alamos to replicate their work. This could make this circus more interesting....

http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2011 ... ses-water/
He says he is working with Los Alamos. Can mean anything. Don't start rejoicing till you hear from LANL...

DancingFool
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Post by DancingFool »

seedload wrote:ONLY NI62 and NI64 'react'! We should probably stick to what Rossi is claiming, no? He is claiming that only NI62 and NI64 react.
If his claims stayed constant, that would make this easier, and Rossi more believable. From the patent application:
Accordingly, it is indispensable to use, for the above mentioned exothermal reactions, a nickel isotope having a mass number of 62, to allow it to transform into a stable copper isotope 62. All the other Ni isotopes, on the other hand, will generate unstable Cu, and, accordingly, a beta decay.
And, just to really muddy the waters, from the same patent application:
Determining the energy produced by a nickel mol.
1 nickel mol = 58 g
Avogadro number 6.022 x 1023 mol"1 = number of nickel atoms in 58 g nickel.
Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy.
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he strafed the lifeboats.

DancingFool
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Post by DancingFool »

DT - While I agree with your conclusion, your numbers need adjustment.
D Tibbets wrote:Assuming there is ~ 13 kg of lead, spread over ~ 50 cm length of pipe with an radius of ~ 20 cm results in a surface area of ~ 50 cm * (20cm * 20 cm* 2 * pi) = ~ 2,000 cm^2. Estimating the lead density at ~ 14 g/ cm^3 results in a volume of lead of ~ 930 cm^3. That spread over the volume of the device covered by the lead results in ~ 0.5 cm of lead pe cm^2. That is a little less than 1/4th of an inch.
Density of lead is a tad over 11 g/cc.
Reported lead shielding is 30 or 50 kg; depends on which source you use. Assume the lower.
Running your calculations gives a thickness of about 1.5 cm, which is in line with Rossi's claims.
The gamma ray flux from the Rossi device would be much greater, and the duration would be much greater. This makes me think that the claim that the lead shielding is actually protecting against a claimed gamma ray output is a joke!
The only out I can see is if the gammas have an energy well below 10 - 20 KeV (even that may be to0 high)
HVL for lead/200 keV is .5 mm, so attenuation of a cm shield is about 1,000,000. Of course, beta decay gives off 511 keV gammas, and the HVL for those is about 5 mm. Rossi is notably silent as to where those have gone. Focardi ( http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/04/ser ... -cold.html ) claims that nucleus recoil sucks up most of the energy, but this has 3 problems:
1) simple analysis shows absorbtion of about 4%
2) Focardi is completely ignorant about the details of the reaction, and
3) Rossi has completely contradicted Focardi on at least one claim in the interview.
And, if neutron capture is presented as the initiating step for the transmutation to copper, where the heck did this free neutron come from?
Silly rabbit, don't you know that Rossi has repeatedly denied that neutrons are emitted?
* I have repeatedly struggled to explain this (often very poorly), but haven't succeeded, at least with some.
If you take a collection of ~ 63 free nucleons and combine them, then of course a lot of energy will come out. But if you add one nucleon, especially a proton, to Ni62 the energy balance is negative. Ni62 is the high water mark. You cannot pack a nucleus tighter, and that is what the thermal/ kinetic energy comes from. There are possibly combinations of smaller nuclei that could still release energy with a product past Ni62, but these are rare reactions and contrary to the Rossi's claims.

Dan Tibbets
Dude. That's what makes Rossi's work so, you know, revolutionary.
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he strafed the lifeboats.

KitemanSA
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Post by KitemanSA »

DancingFool wrote:
DT wrote:* I have repeatedly struggled to explain this (often very poorly), but haven't succeeded, at least with some.
If you take a collection of ~ 63 free nucleons and combine them, then of course a lot of energy will come out. But if you add one nucleon, especially a proton, to Ni62 the energy balance is negative. Ni62 is the high water mark. You cannot pack a nucleus tighter, and that is what the thermal/ kinetic energy comes from. There are possibly combinations of smaller nuclei that could still release energy with a product past Ni62, but these are rare reactions and contrary to the Rossi's claims.

Dan Tibbets
Dude. That's what makes Rossi's work so, you know, revolutionary.
It is also what makes DT so, you know, wrong. Add a proton, binding energy zero, to ANYTHING (well, any nucleus) and you release energy. DT can't seem to understand that. Don't know why that is.
Last edited by KitemanSA on Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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