10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

Point out news stories, on the net or in mainstream media, related to polywell fusion.

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Ivy Matt
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Post by Ivy Matt »

parallel wrote:My understanding of the situation is that the US patent office will not consider a patent having to do with CF. Various scientists, notably from DOE, have arranged it that CF is treated like perpetual motion.
It's my understanding that every patent application is examined by a patent examiner. The examiner makes the determination whether the patent will be granted or not, and uses the criteria established in Federal statutes and case law to determine whether the invention is patentable or not. The influence of the opinions of DOE-funded scientists on the decisions of patent examiners with regard to CF-related patent applications may be profound, but as far as I am aware it is indirect (e.g. contributions to "common knowledge" regarding cold fusion).
parallel wrote:If he did disclose everything in a patent application, how long do you suppose it would be before the information leaked?
18 months.
parallel wrote:Then, suppose the patent was not granted for any reason, the information would be free for others to use.
Yes, that's a risk. The best way to mitigate that risk is to ensure that the invention is new, non-obvious, and useful (including functional).
parallel wrote:He has a patent attorney working on the problem, whom one supposes knows more about it than us. If there is a way around the problem presumably he will take it. The bottom line is that it is not as simple as you suggest to get foolproof coverage. Without it, Rossi would be foolish to disclose more than he has to for commercial reasons.
Sometimes trade secret protection is the better choice, but that also carries with it its own risks. If your trade secrets are breached, congratulations! You get to sue the one person or handful of people who breached your confidentiality agreement, and nobody else. Everybody else who makes use of your trade secret, including commercially, is beyond your reach, because they never signed a confidentiality agreement with you. Pick your poison.
parallel wrote:Edit added. You are wrong to suppose he gets protection from the day of the application. You only get protection from that date AFTER the patent is granted. Lawyers can make sure that doesn't occur in your lifetime. For example, ultimately Tesla (not Marconi) was given priority for wireless communication - after he died.
Well, you certainly don't get patent enforcement until after your patent is granted, but assuming your patent is finally granted, you get to go after everyone who infringed your patent before it was granted. They can't just stop infringing your patent after it is granted and pretend like nothing happened. One purpose of filing for a patent is to obtain a temporary (beginning from the filing date) monopoly on the commercial use of an invention, but another purpose is to prevent a competitor from obtaining a monopoly on the same invention. If you file a patent on your invention, there's evidence indicating that the idea belongs to you, whether it is ultimately determined to be patentable or not. If you protect your invention as a trade secret and someone else manages to stumble across the same idea, file a patent on it, and the patent is granted, congratulations! You are now in violation of their patent. You can't even invalidate their patent, using your trade secret as evidence of prior art, because prior art has to have been made public before the patent was filed. Like I said above, pick your poison.

My overall point is, if you've got something that works, and that can be shown to work (and is new, non-obvious...), you would be silly not to file a patent on it. If you haven't got something that works, and that can be shown to work, well then, maybe I can understand not filing a patent on it.
Temperature, density, confinement time: pick any two.

parallel
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Post by parallel »

Ivy Matt,

I beleive you are wrong on a number of counts, but I don't consider myself an expert on patent law and have to rely on what I read.

Take your first point. Look at the letter from a director of the US Dept. of Commerce given in this link. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthr ... -suppresed
I have seen several others that claim the same thing, that any patent on cold fusion is routed to a special review board that history shows rejects them all. They have been persuaded that cold fusion doesn't work and therefore no patent should ever be granted. Just like for perpetual motion.
They can't just stop infringing your patent after it is granted and pretend like nothing happened.
Yes they can and do. They may then be charged for the use but it is too late to help the inventor. History shows numerous examples where the patent is ignored until it is finally granted. With major patents, that are often disputed, very often the inventor gives up (runs out of money for the lawyers) or dies before it is granted.

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

Further to my previous post:
After a patent is granted, there are no police to go after the people stealing your idea. You have to find them and take them to court. That can take years too. Then in many cases, if the offender loses, his company will have little money that you can find/prove and he simply closes down and starts again with a different name. If it's a large company, their lawyers can string it out for another decade or two in court.

Do you think China will observe a US patent with something like the E-Cat? How could you find out who was making the device and how do you take them to court? If Rossi can make one in his "garage" there will be a widespread cottage industry making them.

I learned a long time ago that ideas are worth very little most of the time. My education came with trying to patent a rotary IC engine (contemporary with Wankel) so I was not expecting anything when I was granted a patent for things like the ATM machine in June 1964. It was called "Access Controller" and basically covered any way you could encode a key with the person's identity. Like most good ideas it seems obvious afterwards. I got ten shillings for the patent. It does annoy me when I am charged more for using my ATM card than I got for the patent.

Joseph Chikva
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:30 am

Post by Joseph Chikva »

parallel wrote:I got ten shillings for the patent.
At least your device was useful.
Unlike Rossi's device.
As in Rossi's case till now I hear only the phrase "if that work". Ok, let him not disclosure and to sell E-cat as "black box". Till now he could not prove the capability of net power producing.
Is that very difficult to insert in scheme flowmeter? Are you not tired to wait a miracle?

ScottL
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:26 pm

Post by ScottL »

parallel wrote:Further to my previous post:
After a patent is granted, there are no police to go after the people stealing your idea. You have to find them and take them to court. That can take years too. Then in many cases, if the offender loses, his company will have little money that you can find/prove and he simply closes down and starts again with a different name. If it's a large company, their lawyers can string it out for another decade or two in court.

Do you think China will observe a US patent with something like the E-Cat? How could you find out who was making the device and how do you take them to court? If Rossi can make one in his "garage" there will be a widespread cottage industry making them.

I learned a long time ago that ideas are worth very little most of the time. My education came with trying to patent a rotary IC engine (contemporary with Wankel) so I was not expecting anything when I was granted a patent for things like the ATM machine in June 1964. It was called "Access Controller" and basically covered any way you could encode a key with the person's identity. Like most good ideas it seems obvious afterwards. I got ten shillings for the patent. It does annoy me when I am charged more for using my ATM card than I got for the patent.
With this sentiment, it seems logical to file for the patent regardless. At least then if one so chooses, they can potentially pursue lawsuits against replicators. The bottom line here is that its going to be replicated via reverse engineering if it works, there are just no ifs/buts about it. Might as well get the show on the road as they say.

seedload
Posts: 1062
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Post by seedload »

I thought this was interesting:
Erik Ander
August 23rd, 2011 at 1:23 AM
Best mr Rossi!
Sorry if you have answered this before.
But i wonder about the gamma-radiation in the
e-cat. is it or is it not any gamma-radiation
from the reactor? and if no, why you need lead and boron?

Best regards! ErikAndrea Rossi
August 23rd, 2011 at 9:52 AM
Dear Erik Ander:
We produce gamma rays, and our energy comes from their thermalization.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

That seems to be different than what he was saying before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

It certainly seems more plausible.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Giorgio wrote:If there will be a delay (or no demo) in October than Rossi credibility should fall to zero even for his most faithful followers. On this I think we can all agree.
Is that demo still on? I thought it had already been pushed back, but you're probably following this more closely than I.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

parallel
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by parallel »

TallDave,
The demo is still on for the end of October. I have read (speculation?) that it will consist of the 1MW unit, probably making steam and probably difficult to measure the output, plus an individual E-Cat, possibly able to run with no power input, that can be isolated for proper measurements without dispute.

Only a couple of month to go now, so it could be interesting.

TallDave
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Post by TallDave »

Looks like:

http://rossifocardifusion.com/rossis-us ... -cat-plant

Should be very interesting.
n*kBolt*Te = B**2/(2*mu0) and B^.25 loss scaling? Or not so much? Hopefully we'll know soon...

ladajo
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Location: North East Coast

Post by ladajo »

Or furthering of fiction.

I notice that it includes the statement (again...) that Rossi is working with University of Bologna. Which the University continues to deny when asked. They state they have no agreements nor pending agreements with Rossi.
After the October launch, Rossi will be continuing research and development work on the E-Cat with the University of Bologna
I am as curious as anyone, but I do have my doubts given how Rossi has been playing this whole drama out.

I am 75/25 for a fraud. He has had many chances to address real questions and critics, but continues animated italian hand waving.

Skipjack
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Post by Skipjack »

notice that it includes the statement (again...) that Rossi is working with University of Bologna. Which the University continues to deny when asked. They state they have no agreements nor pending agreements with Rossi.
This is incredibly confusing for me as well. I watched the interview with Levi on NewEnergyTimes and Levi is talking about doing more tests at the university together with other professors in the future...

Giorgio
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

TallDave wrote:Is that demo still on? I thought it had already been pushed back, but you're probably following this more closely than I.
Still on, but time by time there are hints of a possible delay.
I am not following this too much lately, but I have some good friends that are following this and keeping me up to date.

Giorgio
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Location: China, Italy

Post by Giorgio »

ladajo wrote:I notice that it includes the statement (again...) that Rossi is working with University of Bologna. Which the University continues to deny when asked. They state they have no agreements nor pending agreements with Rossi.
Skipjack wrote:This is incredibly confusing for me as well. I watched the interview with Levi on NewEnergyTimes and Levi is talking about doing more tests at the university together with other professors in the future...
They do have an agreement on paper. To make it active UoB is waiting for Rossi to pay the first installment of the 500K Euro.
He has skipped the payments twice according my source.


ladajo wrote:I am 75/25 for a fraud. He has had many chances to address real questions and critics, but continues animated italian hand waving.
I am getting more 90/10 for an incapacity in interpretation of the experimental results. I'll be happy to be wrong, but I am not holding my breath for the October test.

Carl White
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Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:44 pm

Post by Carl White »

Somewhere, in some gloomy office in Florida:

Shadowy Man 1: You've done the world a great service.
Shadowy Man 2: And we trust you found the settlement satisfactory?
Rossi: The money's fine, the situation is totally unacceptable.
Shadowy Man 2: Well gentlemen, I think that just about wraps it up--
Rossi's wife: Where is the E-Cat?
Shadowy Man 2: I thought we'd settled that. The E-Cat is somewhere very safe.
Rossi: From whom?
Rossi's wife: The E-Cat is a source of unspeakable power and it has to be produced!
Shadowy Man 2: And it will be, I assure you Mrs. Rossi, Mr. Rossi. We have top men working on it right now.
Rossi, leaning forward: Who?
Shadowy Man 2: Top. Men.

Final image, a crate being stored anonymously in an immense warehouse.
Last edited by Carl White on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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