10KW LENR demonstrator (new thread)

[Am]

This presentation provides some interesting historical context and perspective for LENR research/findings. It is more oriented toward actual scientific work than the apparent comercialization/demo approach of Rossi, Defkalion, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc

The videos of the the 2009 University of Missouri seminar are also available on stevenkrivit's youtube channel.

I watched them in late January and they spurred me to begin a real literature search on the topic. The observation of triple alpha tracks in CR-39 is, in my opinion, a smoking gun.

Perhaps you have not read this replication attempt?

http://www.earthtech.org/CR39/index.html

I recommend the videos to anyone interested in cold fusion.

The evidence, when examined carefully, don't look so good. Try reserching any of the individual "credible evidence" experiments for followups.

The video is from 2009, the replication is from 2006. Watch the CR39 section again.

[Giorgio]

Giorgio - hearing Celani getting some interesting results - if you have a moment is there anything newsworthy on 22passi? I looked at some of the info but its pdf in Italian.

http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/12/rom ... 11-ii.html

Unfortunately Blogspot is banned in china, so I do not have possibility to check it personally, but one friend sent me by email a report from 22passi of someone that attended the conference, so take everything I write with the usual care.
To sum it up:

- Celani is observing extremely high power densities in some of his reactions, over 1400 W/gr of Nickel, but he does not feel ready to talk about a "technological reality" because he still cannot get a constant process.

- Celani worked a lot with Arata, the Japaneese government has founded Arata work and the work of Celani and other foreign groups that have been attempting to replicate Arata results.
Celani was able to make al type of "crazy" experiments.
Among the foreign groups replicating Arata work there is MIT and INFN (Italian research lab).

- Arata was working with Palladium and Deuterium and was getting 60W extra power in his experiments, but the real improvement was obtained when he switched from an electrode to a plate.
- Best results was obtained with porous plates, worst results with smooth plates. He than realized h e had to increase the contact surface between Palladium and Deuterium.

- When Celani went back to Italy he modified the experimental set up and started using Nickel wires and high pressure hydrogen.
He realized that the power was increasing using porous Nickel.
He went back to Japan and advised Arata. Arata started to make all sort of experiment with Nickel of any possible dimension and he discovered that nanometric Nickel in aggregates less than 20 ångström was giving the best results.
He was even able to obtain a reaction (even if not powerful) at room temperature.

- Regarding the Gamma Celani stated that they are the final product of the reaction that can be removed (note: this was really not clear.)

- By applying a microwave signal to the powder they noticed a great production of Gamma rays. Celani says they are not needed and are not considered useful to the process.

- Regarding the Catalyst, Celani thinks that it must be a metal like Platinum or Palladium.

-Celani went to state that there are scientific evidences to the process.

-Celani stated that Defkalion might have gone further than Rossi from a technological point of view.

- He stated that the secrecy behavior of Rossi is stupid and in the end he will loose the scientific and industrial prestige that he seeks.
According Celani Rossi is getting a 600% surplus energy.

- Celani might release some info about an experiment he is running since a couple of weeks in the coming days (mentioning a constant 200% surplus energy for the last couple of weeks).


That's it more or less.

[cg66]

Thanks for the info!

[TallDave]

Thanks Giorgio, very interesting.

It would be great if we could get some widespread replication on these kinds of observations, so that we can have higher confidence there's actually some "there there." Seems like it ought to be doable for even smallish labs. Assuming bhl isn't dead from gamma ray exposure yet, maybe he'll report something back.

[tomclarke]

Giorgio - hearing Celani getting some interesting results - if you have a moment is there anything newsworthy on 22passi? I looked at some of the info but its pdf in Italian.

http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/12/rom ... 11-ii.html

Unfortunately Blogspot is banned in china, so I do not have possibility to check it personally, but one friend sent me by email a report from 22passi of someone that attended the conference, so take everything I write with the usual care.
To sum it up:

- Celani is observing extremely high power densities in some of his reactions, over 1400 W/gr of Nickel, but he does not feel ready to talk about a "technological reality" because he still cannot get a constant process.

- Celani worked a lot with Arata, the Japaneese government has founded Arata work and the work of Celani and other foreign groups that have been attempting to replicate Arata results.
Celani was able to make al type of "crazy" experiments.
Among the foreign groups replicating Arata work there is MIT and INFN (Italian research lab).

- Arata was working with Palladium and Deuterium and was getting 60W extra power in his experiments, but the real improvement was obtained when he switched from an electrode to a plate.
- Best results was obtained with porous plates, worst results with smooth plates. He than realized h e had to increase the contact surface between Palladium and Deuterium.

- When Celani went back to Italy he modified the experimental set up and started using Nickel wires and high pressure hydrogen.
He realized that the power was increasing using porous Nickel.
He went back to Japan and advised Arata. Arata started to make all sort of experiment with Nickel of any possible dimension and he discovered that nanometric Nickel in aggregates less than 20 ångström was giving the best results.
He was even able to obtain a reaction (even if not powerful) at room temperature.

- Regarding the Gamma Celani stated that they are the final product of the reaction that can be removed (note: this was really not clear.)

- By applying a microwave signal to the powder they noticed a great production of Gamma rays. Celani says they are not needed and are not considered useful to the process.

- Regarding the Catalyst, Celani thinks that it must be a metal like Platinum or Palladium.

-Celani went to state that there are scientific evidences to the process.

-Celani stated that Defkalion might have gone further than Rossi from a technological point of view.

- He stated that the secrecy behavior of Rossi is stupid and in the end he will loose the scientific and industrial prestige that he seeks.
According Celani Rossi is getting a 600% surplus energy.

- Celani might release some info about an experiment he is running since a couple of weeks in the coming days (mentioning a constant 200% surplus energy for the last couple of weeks).


That's it more or less.

Giorgio, this is interesting, but my own personal deconstruction is as follows:

Celani is not to my knowledge both scientifically incompetent and duplicitous (liek Rossi) so I am inclined to take what he says as his true opinion worth something - but maybe not worth a lot.

nanometric Nickel works better - very likely but there is no discrimination here between LENR and non-LENR chemical effects. Same comment re metal catalyst.

Microwave signal produces copious gammas. Don't believe it for a moment, more likely microwave device interfered with gamma detector. LOL.

High power density: this means nothing per se, since chemical reactions can have arbitrarily high PD. More, the same issues with experimental error apply to this observation as do to the 200% excess power observation.

Celani on Rossi - ignore, since Celani is clearly inclined to believe Rossi.

Celani experiment, 200% excess power over two weeks. Sounds impressive but like all CF experiments you need to look at the detail: it may be a 5% power increase measured in out versus in power with potential experimental errors greater than this.

If Celani had hard evidence of sustained energy production it would after all be publishable and give him a Nobel prize or two...

Best wishes, Tom

[bhl]

Can anyone recommend a signal generator that supports multiple waveforms and has a enough power to drive an induction coil. (Ebay?) I don't want to spend a fortune, but want something that will be able to heat and/or resonate the metal powders.
With a few rare exceptions, no signal generator is going to provide the power you need.

Just found this interesting paper from Edmund Storms who says he applied 30 mw of 81.9MHz to a coil around a cell to increase heating... this is in a palladium heavy water fusion test. http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEhowtoprodu.pdf

This Piantelli patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0767962B1.html from the mid-90's also talks about a process used to create energy from nickel, hydrogen and a coil. ("application of a magnetic field of 1 Tesla obtained by means of coil 9 wound around the core.")

I am constantly surprised by the amount of information that turns up about the Rossi process...

edit: I'm not dead yet!

[Ivy Matt]

Going back to the thread, yesterday chrismb posted on the wikipedia page of the Rossi reactor an interesting paragraph regarding the patent process.
This paragraph has now been removed by one of the moderators, pending revision.

I paste it here as it is an interesting point:

Rossi's US patent application, 12/736,193 filed September 16th 2010, is listed under USPTO Class 126/263.01 "Stoves and Furnaces; Chemical Heaters". Rossi's patent application does not reveal any specifics of the catalyzer materials he references in the specification and claims of his application. He has also previously stated, in an answer on his personal blog, that "We will not reveal any industrial secret, obviously".
However, as indicated in the MPEP 2165 and Union Carbide Corp v. Borg Warner, 193 U.S.P.Q "Where an inventor knows of a specific material that will make possible the successful reproduction of the effects claimed by the patent, but does not disclose it, speaking instead in terms of broad categories, the best mode requirement has not been satisfied."

From the above it looks pretty clear that Rossi will not be able to get any patent protection in USA.

Or in other words, Rossi's patent application, as it currently stands, apparently does not represent progress in science or the useful arts. I guess the question is, why bother with a patent application at all if your intention is to keep the advancement as a trade secret?

[Giorgio]

Giorgio, this is interesting, but my own personal deconstruction is as follows:

Just to clarify, that was not my personal opinions, I was simply translating a report from another person that attended the conference.
Some of those points I find them also pretty weird, like the one of the large gamma generated by the RF (made me giggle too).

To date I do not know Prof. Celani well enough to express any personal opinion on him. He is anyhow quite well respected in the Italian scientific community, but also was/is Prof. Focardi.......
I am eager to see this over-unity experimental report in a couple o weeks.

If Celani had hard evidence of sustained energy production it would after all be publishable and give him a Nobel prize or two...

I fully agree.

[Giorgio]

Or in other words, Rossi's patent application, as it currently stands, apparently does not represent progress in science or the useful arts. I guess the question is, why bother with a patent application at all if your intention is to keep the advancement as a trade secret?

Probably a poor understanding of what a patent is and what is required to get it, but in the end no one really knows.

[Crawdaddy]

This presentation provides some interesting historical context and perspective for LENR research/findings. It is more oriented toward actual scientific work than the apparent comercialization/demo approach of Rossi, Defkalion, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc

The videos of the the 2009 University of Missouri seminar are also available on stevenkrivit's youtube channel.

I watched them in late January and they spurred me to begin a real literature search on the topic. The observation of triple alpha tracks in CR-39 is, in my opinion, a smoking gun.

Perhaps you have not read this replication attempt?

http://www.earthtech.org/CR39/index.html

I recommend the videos to anyone interested in cold fusion.

The evidence, when examined carefully, don't look so good. Try reserching any of the individual "credible evidence" experiments for followups.

It is not the large number of overlapping tracks on the face of the CR-39 that are of interest, but the back side etch pits and 14MeV neutron triple track signatures that nucleate inside the CR-39.

As far as the report goes, I find it much less complete and well documented than the SPAWAR research. It also does not address the "smoking gun" results that I mentioned in my original post.

[MSimon]

"application of a magnetic field of 1 Tesla obtained by means of coil 9 wound around the core."

Doubtful that it was continuous. And then there is a problem making measurements with all that racket (pulsed currents/voltages) going on.

[stefanbanev]

>Or in other words, Rossi's patent application, as it currently stands,
>apparently does not represent progress in science or the useful arts.

Well, the patenting has nothing to do with "progress in science or the useful arts", the only purpose is to obtain some IP protection, it's really naive to think otherwise. Once there are real monetary opportunities all talks about science & cooperation etc... is a BS with only one apparent agenda behind...

[ScottL]

>Or in other words, Rossi's patent application, as it currently stands,
>apparently does not represent progress in science or the useful arts.

Well, the patenting has nothing to do with "progress in science or the useful arts", the only purpose is to obtain some IP protection, it's really naive to think otherwise. Once there are real monetary opportunities all talks about science & cooperation etc... is a BS with only one apparent agenda behind...

What they're saying is the patent is invalid in the U.S. as it doesn't meet the requirement for "progress in science or the useful arts." He'll never have protection in the U.S. until he discloses the entire process.

[parallel]

This is one of the better hypotheses explaining cold fusion that I have seen. It also predicts that Chromium could be used, providing a fairly simple way of confirming the theory.

Theoretical Feasibility of Cold Fusion According to the BSM - Supergravitation Unified Theory
http://vixra.org/pdf/1112.0043v2.pdf

[JoeP]

This is one of the better hypotheses explaining cold fusion that I have seen. It also predicts that Chromium could be used, providing a fairly simple way of confirming the theory.

Theoretical Feasibility of Cold Fusion According to the BSM - Supergravitation Unified Theory
http://vixra.org/pdf/1112.0043v2.pdf

Pretty interesting, although he seems to believe Rossi completely and leave no room for fraud

I don't have the training to refute any of it, but it does remind me of the chemical effects we get just from molecular geometry, only this is in the subatomic realm. Interesting how shapes and the effects of having a particular form repeats on different size scales in nature (sort of like fractals).