Mach Effect progress

[93143]

After all you would need distance & time to decelerate anyway, after you disengaged the drive

Why?

[williatw]

After all you would need distance & time to decelerate anyway, after you disengaged the drive

Why?

My understanding (& other posters here could explain better) is that the way the warp drive is currently envisioned as working, you would build up to some velocity using some other method of propulsion prior to(or maybe at the same time not sure?) engaging the drive and it would multiply your apparently velocity by compressing space in front of you and stretching out space behind you. When you disengaged the drive after reaching your destination you would still have this velocity to deal with.

[zapkitty]

... velocity relative to what?

[williatw]

... velocity relative to what?

Your velocity relative to your destination is what you would be concerned about. Presumably you want to land or go into orbit around your target planet. If you are traveling 1-5% c after you disengage the drive most of this velocity would have to be shed, requiring time and distance (from the target planet) to do so.

[GIThruster]

I think you're confusing the Alcubierre metric with Sonny White's interpretation of "warp boost" as explained by Paul March. In the Alcubierre metric, space is contracted in front of the craft and expanded behind it to push the craft along. It rides the warp in spacetime much like a surfer riding a wave generated by his board. This does not require the craft to be moving inside its spacetime or a second propulsion system. It rather flies on a timelike geodesic and the spacecraft and its contents experience no acceleration and are weightless.

In White's warp boost model, the ship needs to be moving and provide for its own motion. It is not on a timelike geodesic. The ship and occupants experience acceleration and weight. The supposed warp boost multiplies the relative motion of the craft.

It's important to note that the Alcubierre metric is almost 20 years old and has been peer reviewed and modified many times over the years. There are lots of additions to and versions of it. This paper from NASA appears to be just such an addition though I have not read it yet. To the best of my knowledge, Dr. White's "warp boost" model has never seen any sort of peer review and no one is familiar with any details of it, including Paul March who has posted about it here. It is thus wise not to confuse the two. Warp theory is just exactly that sort of work that desperately requires peer review. There is a lot of nonsense out there written by people who want to impress others, but who continually avoid the peer review process. Look for the warning labels. . .or lack thereof.

[williatw]

I think you're confusing the Alcubierre metric with Sonny White's interpretation of "warp boost" as explained by Paul March. In the Alcubierre metric, space is contracted in front of the craft and expanded behind it to push the craft along. It rides the warp in spacetime much like a surfer riding a wave generated by his board. This does not require the craft to be moving inside its spacetime or a second propulsion system. It rather flies on a timelike geodesic and the spacecraft and its contents experience no acceleration and are weightless.

In White's warp boost model, the ship needs to be moving and provide for its own motion. It is not on a timelike geodesic. The ship and occupants experience acceleration and weight. The supposed warp boost multiplies the relative motion of the craft.

It's important to note that the Alcubierre metric is almost 20 years old and has been peer reviewed and modified many times over the years. There are lots of additions to and versions of it. This paper from NASA appears to be just such an addition though I have not read it yet. To the best of my knowledge, Dr. White's "warp boost" model has never seen any sort of peer review and no one is familiar with any details of it, including Paul March who has posted about it here. It is thus wise not to confuse the two. Warp theory is just exactly that sort of work that desperately requires peer review. There is a lot of nonsense out there written by people who want to impress others, but who continually avoid the peer review process. Look for the warning labels. . .or lack thereof.

Yes I (and the referenced articles) was referring to the Dr. White's unproven derivation, not the original Alcubierre metric, the one requiring impossible Jupiter mass amounts of exotic matter. I (and the other posters) were simply commenting on the problem referenced in the 1st link about the charged particles swept up by the warp field as it traveled through space (& released when the warp field was disengaged), and possible solutions thereof. I hope the Eagle works experiments the results of which will hopefully be peer published/reviewed will begin to address your concerns about the lack of proof of White's assertions.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1364 ... -plausible


From the 1st link posted: "The researchers are beginning a new round of number crunching to see how bad the problem is. It’s possible the deadly particle beam could be projected in all directions, making Alcubierre drives unworkable. That spiffy warp ship might make a better weapon than method of transportation."


If that's true than the whole idea is toast, projected in all directions means the ship and crew would be destroyed when the drive was disengaged, assuming Skipjack's idea of repeatedly disengaging & re-engaging the drive wouldn't work.

[GIThruster]

I hope Sonny will publish too. The more serious work we can see on this subject the better.

Yes I (and the referenced articles) was referring to the Dr. White's unproven derivation, not the original Alcubierre metric, the one requiring impossible Jupiter mass amounts of exotic matter.

But they're not impossible masses. What you need to understand is that theoretically, mass cannot only be turned negative for brief periods of time, but it can go extremely negative. With a 10^10% mass fluctuation, a ton of mass becomes 10^10 tons of negative mass. Jupiter masses are in theory, quite within our reach. That doesn't mean this will be easy, but it is the only realistic way ahead, Sonny's revisions notwithstanding.

[williatw]

I hope Sonny will publish too. The more serious work we can see on this subject the better.

Yes I (and the referenced articles) was referring to the Dr. White's unproven derivation, not the original Alcubierre metric, the one requiring impossible Jupiter mass amounts of exotic matter.

But they're not impossible masses. What you need to understand is that theoretically, mass cannot only be turned negative for brief periods of time, but it can go extremely negative. With a 10^10% mass fluctuation, a ton of mass becomes 10^10 tons of negative mass. Jupiter masses are in theory, quite within our reach. That doesn't mean this will be easy, but it is the only realistic way ahead, Sonny's revisions notwithstanding.

Where does that come from? Thought how to make "exotic matter" or even if it actually exists wasn't at all clear? From the 1st link: "The ring would have to be made of an as-yet unidentified kind of dense exotic matter capable of bending space-time."
If you know how to make exotic matter you should tell Sonny White sure he would love to know how.

[AcesHigh]

Solution:
Disengage the warp drive frequently and then reengage it.

Or just disengage the warp drive when you are say a few hundred or thousand AU's away from your destination planet, and make sure the "cone" of particles is blasted in a safe direction. Then proceed the rest of the way on your Fusion or "mach thruster" drive. After all you would need distance & time to decelerate anyway, after you disengaged the drive, the other issue with the energized particles notwithstanding.

the future will be a dangerous place. Airplanes against skyscrapers? Bah. How about a 100 tons ship travelling at 99,999% the speed of light hitting a planet? Or a cone of radiation from a ship desengaging Warp Speed?

[Skipjack]

Bah. How about a 100 tons ship travelling at 99,999% the speed of light hitting a planet?

Thats the thing though, your spaceship is still only moving at a comparably lower speed.

Or a cone of radiation from a ship desengaging Warp Speed?

That is a real danger indeed. So basically this propulsion system has a built in doomsday weapon...

On the other hand, what distances would you really have to travel in order to pick up a large enough amount of particles for this to actually have a real effect? Earth gets hit with tons of fast particles every day, but they have little effect as they are spread over a large enough area...

[GIThruster]

Where does that come from? Thought how to make "exotic matter" or even if it actually exists wasn't at all clear? From the 1st link: "The ring would have to be made of an as-yet unidentified kind of dense exotic matter capable of bending space-time."
If you know how to make exotic matter you should tell Sonny White sure he would love to know how.

Jim's entire thesis is based on how to make exotic matter. Mach Effects are mass fluctuations. Sonny is completely aware of Jim's theory, as is Paul March I can assure you.

[djolds1]

Solution:
Disengage the warp drive frequently and then reengage it.

Regardless, if this analysis is accurate, Alcubierre and Alcubierre-related starships would be Death-Star class weapons. Use of starships would be restricted to a few authorized agencies, akin to the Heighliners of Frank Herbert's "Dune." The restricted membership of "The Starship Club" would be jealously maintained and violated at risk, much as "The Nuclear Club" is today under the NPT.

[Skipjack]

Regardless, if this analysis is accurate, Alcubierre and Alcubierre-related starships would be Death-Star class weapons. Use of starships would be restricted to a few authorized agencies, akin to the Heighliners of Frank Herbert's "Dune." The restricted membership of "The Starship Club" would be jealously maintained and violated at risk, much as "The Nuclear Club" is today under the NPT.

Maybe, but then what really would there be to argue about when you can go anywhere in the universe having an unlimited amount of resources at your disposal?

[djolds1]

the future will be a dangerous place. Airplanes against skyscrapers? Bah. How about a 100 tons ship traveling at 99,999% the speed of light hitting a planet? Or a cone of radiation from a ship disengaging Warp Speed?

Would tend to promote techno-nomadism. Fixed installations and urbanized locations are static targets begging to be reduced.

Regardless, if this analysis is accurate, Alcubierre and Alcubierre-related starships would be Death-Star class weapons. Use of starships would be restricted to a few authorized agencies, akin to the Heighliners of Frank Herbert's "Dune." The restricted membership of "The Starship Club" would be jealously maintained and violated at risk, much as "The Nuclear Club" is today under the NPT.

Maybe, but then what really would there be to argue about when you can go anywhere in the universe having an unlimited amount of resources at your disposal?

The potential to drop Relativistic Kinetic Kill Weapons on every human-inhabited planet in the known universe would tend to obsess human political institutions for a millennium or so, I'd guess.

[williatw]

the future will be a dangerous place. Airplanes against skyscrapers? Bah. How about a 100 tons ship traveling at 99,999% the speed of light hitting a planet? Or a cone of radiation from a ship disengaging Warp Speed?

Would tend to promote techno-nomadism. Fixed installations and urbanized locations are static targets begging to be reduced.

Regardless, if this analysis is accurate, Alcubierre and Alcubierre-related starships would be Death-Star class weapons. Use of starships would be restricted to a few authorized agencies, akin to the Heighliners of Frank Herbert's "Dune." The restricted membership of "The Starship Club" would be jealously maintained and violated at risk, much as "The Nuclear Club" is today under the NPT.

Maybe, but then what really would there be to argue about when you can go anywhere in the universe having an unlimited amount of resources at your disposal?

The potential to drop Relativistic Kinetic Kill Weapons on every human-inhabited planet in the known universe would tend to obsess human political institutions for a millennium or so, I'd guess.

Or the creation of some kind of "starfleet command" to protect earth and the more established urban centers, assuming a ship in "warp" can be tracked. That "cone of death" would be hard to defend against, a ship could be some distance from a planet drop out of warp an irradiate it, would need some kind of active space navy defense.