Fusion Deception

[KitemanSA]

Don't bother folk, Joey just can't get it.

It is called a "breakthrough" because the maker had to break through the accumulated mass of wrong thinking by all the "experts" in the field.

[Joseph Chikva]

Don't bother folk, Joey just can't get it.

It is called a "breakthrough" because the maker had to break through the accumulated mass of wrong thinking by all the "experts" in the field.

Yes, I really can not get your and some others "right thinking" because when you talk about TOKAMAK you do not know even its principle of operation and do not know what real results were achieved.
Bothering on high cost of TOKAMAK program you can not imagine that 3000 PhD and technicians involved in ITER program have not less than 200 millions USD salary annually and multiplying on 30 years you would get 6 billions have to be spent only on salary.
Then conferences, traveling, etc. This makes additional let's say 6 billions.
So, my estimation of ITER's hardware cost is 8 billions and not 20.
Recall also that ITER is experimental machine. And "experimental" means the cost on order of magnitude higher then industrial one.

Without using opinion of any expert in the field I am sure (my own opinion) that real TOKAMAK can run without superconducting coils like high field TOKAMAKs developed by MIT institute of Russian-Italian "Ignitor" project. And such experimental (not industrial) machines can be built at about 200 millions.

From the other side building of such large cryostat and superconducting magnets is a great engineering experience - very useful in many fields including fusion but only when materials will become cheap enough. And that is only the time issue.
Recall that aluminum metal initially was very expensive and now its price is reasonable and acceptable for many applications.

But again any way to reach breakeven is acceptable for us today. And only TOKAMAKs are the most close to this goal.

[Betruger]

Close in time or money?

[Joseph Chikva]

Close in time or money?

Close in energy balance.
Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokamak_Fu ... st_Reactor

In 1994 it produced a then world-record 10.7 megawatts of fusion power from a plasma composed of equal parts of deuterium and tritium (exceeded at JET in the UK, which generated 16MW for 22MW input in 1997, which is the current record).

Neither other approaches can do similar today and in near future.
And that is the fact.

[Betruger]

You're saying categorically that ITER is without competition in the race to economic energy distribution. .. ?

[Joseph Chikva]

You're saying categorically that ITER is without competition in the race to economic energy distribution. .. ?

I am saying categorically that ITER is an experimental reactor and that is not intended for economic power generation.

If you are talking about competition between various fusion approaches, yes, I can not see such competition as such a competition exists in excited amateurs’ imagination, while DOE considers seriously only two approaches: heavily financed TOKAMAK and rather lightly financed yet HIF (Heavy Ions Fusion).
And as far as I know NIF (National Ignition Facility) already is not considered as fusion project.
Did I miss anything?

[KitemanSA]

Don't bother folk, Joey just can't get it.

It is called a "breakthrough" because the maker had to break through the accumulated mass of wrong thinking by all the "experts" in the field.

SEE?

[Joseph Chikva]

Don't bother folk, Joey just can't get it.

It is called a "breakthrough" because the maker had to break through the accumulated mass of wrong thinking by all the "experts" in the field.

SEE?

Yes, and stated: how right is thinking that expert without quotes with Kiteman nick.

[KitemanSA]

Yes, and stated: how right is thinking that expert without quotes with Kiteman nick.

Wha???

[TallDave]

This article is written by the author of the book "Sun in a Bottle: The Strange History Fusion and the Science of Wishful Thinking". When I was reading the article it reminded me of the content of the book so I wasn't surprised that it was by the same author. In his book he devotes one paragraph to the Polywell in the appendix on table top fusion devices. He points out that IEC devices have been created by high school students but the amount of fusion energy produced is way too small. He says that the math that explains the physics of the IEC device indicates that it cannot produce any meaningful amount of fusion. He also says the same applies to the Polywell since it is in the same category.

Funny, it's still hard to get people to understand the Polywell is a magnetic/IEC hybrid specifically designed to address the challenges of temperature/confinement in toks and of density/confinement in IEC. It may not work out, but it's silly to dismiss Polywell on the basis of long-known problems with IEC.

[Joseph Chikva]

Funny, it's still hard to get people to understand the Polywell is a magnetic/IEC hybrid specifically designed to address the challenges of temperature/confinement in toks...

I thought that Polywell is a simply another fusion concept significantly different from TOKAMAKs. And at certain conditions TOKAMAKs have not confinement problems - real lifetime of plasma in JET TOKAMAK exceeds 60 sec. And this is rather long time period.

It may not work out, but it's silly to dismiss Polywell on the basis of long-known problems with IEC.

Did Polywell concept not have 7 or 8 generation of already built machines?

[Torulf2]

Thy don't think it might ever be economic but its really good science.
Bussard

We spent 15 bilions dollars studing tokamaks and what we know about them is thy are no darn good.
Krall

[happyjack27]

the book is just full of faulty logic and what not. it's like watching fox news. bad for your brain. seems pointless to discuss all the faulty reasoning in it. like discussing subtle odors of poop. sorry, that's not a fair comparison - poop odors can be valuable for forensic science.

[Joseph Chikva]

Thy don't think it might ever be economic but its really good science.
Bussard

He did not think so when he proposed to build Riggatron.

A Riggatron is a magnetic confinement fusion reactor design created by Robert W. Bussard in the late 1970s. It is tokamak on the basis of its magnetic geometry, but some unconventional engineering choices were made, in particular the use of copper magnets positioned inside the blanket, which was hoped to lead to much lower construction costs.

Riggatron was high aspect ratio TOKAMAK. But now it is meant that lower aspect ratio is more preferable as allows higher beta.
Coils inside also would not be a good idea due to the neutron flux.

We spent 15 bilions dollars studing tokamaks and what we know about them is thy are no darn good.
Krall

I do not know who Krall is. But "no darn good" phrase is less informative. Not good - offer better. Offered?

[KitemanSA]

Don't bother folk, Joey just can't get it.

It is called a "breakthrough" because the maker had to break through the accumulated mass of wrong thinking by all the "experts" in the field.

SEE?

Really folks, he is too emotionally involved to ever get the point you are trying to make. Don't waste your time.