the problem of pumping electrons into the Polywell

Robthebob · Post by **Robthebob** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:53 pm

it may not be as bleak as it seems. Emc2 has come out and said that their employer, the Navy, will not stop emc2 from going public if they hit the jack pot. They just want the technology to stay in the US (at first?)

It's true that everything runs on energy, it's also true with fusion and advancement in robotics, there doesnt even need to be a lower class anymore.

In this day and age, where companies like google and valve have demonstrated, the hierarchy corporation no longer is the most effective way of doing things. We dont need division of labor because we can get robots to do a lot of the labor jobs, we need just about everyone to come up with good ideas and everyone to help implement them. Maybe a little bit of division of labor at the upper level to ensure order, but not the traditional sense anymore.

Seriously, some dude at valve just came up with the steam game distribution system, and the company no longer need to worry about money ever again. Google pays for its employees to to go better themselves on company time, they realize they dont want zombie robot workers, they need thinkers, they need doers.

Nydoc · Post by **Nydoc** » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:32 pm

CharlesKramer wrote:
bennmann wrote:The Sydney experiment and your opinion? So many people forget that one.
Link?

I confess I don't know that one.

I believe he means this:
http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/2 ... the-scene/
http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/2 ... nfinement/

Joseph Chikva · Post by **Joseph Chikva** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:49 am

Robthebob wrote:They just want the technology to stay in the US (at first?)

The Age of America ends in 2016: IMF predicts the year China's economy will surpass U.S.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ss-US.html
How are you/they going to hold technology leadership if economically you have such a strong competitor?

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:32 pm

Paper Tiger there genius.

ladajo · Post by **ladajo** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:33 pm

Oh poop. I went and talked to him.

Robthebob · Post by **Robthebob** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:42 pm

?? the forefront technology doesnt exist anywhere else in the world really other than with 1 company. There might be other ways of doing it which can be independently invented; or same ways but still independently invented. But currently there's 1 company at the very front, and I dont think there's any other organization even close to emc2.

Isnt background gas electron striping better for bigger machines anyways? It may be stupid if they have to build big enough electron guns for break even machines and beyond.

Are they still just testing scaling? I guess maybe scaling of pB11...

CharlesKramer · Post by **CharlesKramer** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:58 am

Robthebob wrote:1 company at the very front, and I dont think there's any other organization even close to emc2

Why?

Isn't Polywell a very simple device, easy to replicate? at the very least it's immediate predecessors are well known.

What could someone with $100 million do? Or 10x that?

--- build the demo machine on the theory the only barrier is scaling laws

--- build a dozen variations using different alloys, different methods of injecting electrons, different sizes, different geometries... trying spinning the entire device... paint it purple.

And you have no way to be confident that's not going on right this second -- in the USA and/or (more likely) elsewhere -- since secret efforts would be, you know... secret.

Considering the titanic stakes economically and every other way, I would not be surprised to know those efforts are ongoing. I hope they are.

Joseph Chikva · Post by **Joseph Chikva** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:35 am

CharlesKramer wrote:What could someone with $100 million do? Or 10x that?

And 1 billion? 10 billions?
Or anybody here thinks that if technology is real that is not worth to be invested there billions?
China economics growths fast and they suffer the deficit of energy. And fast economy growth means also the fast growth of energy demand (consumption).

ScottL · Post by **ScottL** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:04 am

Many decades of promises (in fusion, not emc2) have made investors and potential investors very wary, and rightly so. Claims of potential progress if X amount of dollars were thrown at it is just talk and not action. We can speculate, rumor monger, and hold our breath until we're blue in the face, but the project will continue on at it's "safest" pace.

Joseph Chikva · Post by **Joseph Chikva** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:20 am

ScottL wrote:Many decades of promises (in fusion, not emc2) have made investors and potential investors very wary, and rightly so. Claims of potential progress if X amount of dollars were thrown at it is just talk and not action. We can speculate, rumor monger, and hold our breath until we're blue in the face, but the project will continue on at it's "safest" pace.

"The safest" way is to do nothing.
After decades of promises real and not potential investors invested in ITER up to 20 billions USD as by their opinion only TOKAMAK concept is the most promising concept up to date. Recall that 20 billions should be spent not for commercialization but only for receiving of some intermediate data.
And I am sure that in case if any other fusion concept (approach) would show better than TOKAMAK results, its financing also would not be problematic. May be that would be extended in time - 20-30 years (the end of oil era is in about 50 years) but then fill be financed without fail.

Also as an answer to Mr. Kramer I would say that idea of TOKAMAK is not complex than Polywell and mature Polywell can not be cheapper than comparable size TOKAMAK.
And do not speak with me about high beta (equal to one) in the topic devoted to the electron injecting problem into Polywell. As namely ijection problem testifies to impossibility of achievement of a high beta and can be explained by electron beams' phase volume growth as result of instabilities.

paperburn1 · Post by **paperburn1** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:13 pm

CharlesKramer wrote:
Robthebob wrote:1 company at the very front, and I dont think there's any other organization even close to emc2

And you have no way to be confident that's not going on right this second -- in the USA and/or (more likely) elsewhere -- since secret efforts would be, you know... secret.

Considering the titanic stakes economically and every other way, I would not be surprised to know those efforts are ongoing. I hope they are.

I see efforts by university's and government projects around the globe this is a large project on a worldwide basis.

Robthebob · Post by **Robthebob** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:24 pm

Excuse me, any publicly known organization even close to emc2.

bennmann · Post by **bennmann** » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:17 am

Nydoc wrote:
CharlesKramer wrote:
bennmann wrote:The Sydney experiment and your opinion? So many people forget that one.
Link?

I confess I don't know that one.
I believe he means this:
http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/2 ... the-scene/
http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/2 ... nfinement/

Yup, but there is also:
University of Sydney paper:
http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v1 ... ypassSSO=1

Charles, read with joy.